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Thread: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

  1. #151
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Equality but only for certain groups is not equality. Coin the phrase "some people are more equal than others". SSM is not about equal rights, it's about gays having rights, and the right in question is the the right to let the State infringe on their privacy, which isn't much of a legitimate 'right' at all anyway. If SSM were about equal rights then we would be talking about all harmless unions, such a polygamy.

    I trust you're intelligent enough to not buy into the 'equality' meme.
    It is equality for same sex couples in the same way that opposite sex couples are currently allowed to marry. That is the comparison. It is not just about gays because every single person gets a new right recognized for them by the government, the right to marry a person of the same sex, as they currently can the opposite sex, not just gays.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If it were about equality under the law then we would be talking about all groups, not just those which distract the public from obama selling terrorists modern arms.
    That isn't how equality under the law works. If it were, then same sex couples would have been allowed to legally marry with the Loving decision.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    OR it could be that YOU don't understand how our courts function as opposed to how they are supposed to function. SCOTUS abandons their oath, makes a decision that is basically rewriting the Constitution. That decision becomes precedent from which a number of lower court decisions derive. Some of them even interpreting in their own rewrites thusly.

    That's the problem when you allow the courts to do what the people should be doing.
    And yet not only do we, the people, allow them to make these decisions, most of us agree that in making such decisions that they generally tend to protect our rights more than they take them away. Very few people actually believe that the states should have unlimited right to decide who should be allowed to marry.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No, that's not why the 14th applies.

    The 14th applies because classifications of gender require intermediate scrutiny under the 14th amendment, the test being that the measure is "substantially related to an important state interest."

    Name the interest.
    All while ignoring other protected classes whoes relationships are not otherwise harmful, like marital status. If the 14th applies to one, it applies to all, and since the marriage reform movement isn't addressing them all, the 14th applies to non.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Given your answers I might guess that you are in favor of polygamy, yes?
    I'm not passionate enough to say I'm in favor. I would say I'm indifferent, but in all fairness if someone said they were indifferent to abortion we would call them pro-choice, so if you want to call me pro-polygamy then go right ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Further it is discriminatory to pass laws against it, yes?
    Marital status is a protected class, and what's more is polygamy is bonefied religious practice in many places, thus I would say a ban of polygamy is twice as discriminatory as a ban on SSM. That the 'equality' meme doesn't address such relationships demonstrates that SSM is not about equality at all. This is just a wedge issue.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    That isn't how equality under the law works. If it were, then same sex couples would have been allowed to legally marry with the Loving decision.
    I think you mean that's not how SCOTUS works. I think the average American would be a mixture of impressed and horrified to learn how SCOTUS works. Did you know they figured out a way to extend their authority onto other countries? It's a nice trick, truly.

    Policy needs to come from the legislature and the legislature only. We need a marriage amendment defining what marriage is, why the state should be involved at all, and protect fair and equal access to all relationships which are not otherwise harmful. We need the same for abortion. Short of that, a person is abusing the system to feed a wedge issue.

    That your cause is just doesn't mean it is not judicial activism.
    Last edited by Jerry; 06-30-14 at 09:57 PM.

  7. #157
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    All while ignoring other protected classes whoes relationships are not otherwise harmful, like marital status. If the 14th applies to one, it applies to all, and since the marriage reform movement isn't addressing them all, the 14th applies to non.
    You still don't get it. The 14th amendment applies to all laws, it's just that it doesn't overturn all laws. Polygamy would not be subject to heightened scrutiny, so the rational basis review would apply. The state must only show a rational basis for the classification. Do they have one? Good question. It's not a terribly high bar to pass. I suspect polygamy bans would not hold up under the 14th amendment if challenged. Why haven't you challenged them?

    As for all the other bull**** the evangelicals bring up like pedophiles, bestiality, marrying furniture, etc, the state can easily justify banning those.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You still don't get it. The 14th amendment applies to all laws, it's just that it doesn't overturn all laws. Polygamy would not be subject to heightened scrutiny, so the rational basis review would apply.
    An Amendment to the Constitution on marriage would bump that up to Strict Scrutiny, but alas marriage is not a constitutional right like it should be, and it seems the 'equality' movement has no interest in Due Process. I hope SCOTUS rules against SSM like they ruled against women's right to vote so that we can do what we should have don at the very beginning: make an Amendment regarding marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The state must only show a rational basis for the classification. Do they have one? Good question. It's not a terribly high bar to pass. I suspect polygamy bans would not hold up under the 14th amendment if challenged. Why haven't you challenged them?
    We tried and failed. Native Americans need to clean up the rez before their polygamy case will be hard by the state. Until then, there are to many targets of opportunity in the real-life examples of polygamy on the rez to make it a viable movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    As for all the other bull**** the evangelicals bring up like pedophiles, bestiality, marrying furniture, etc, the state can easily justify banning those.
    You won't hear me bringing up any of that nonsense.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    OR it could be that YOU don't understand how our courts function as opposed to how they are supposed to function. SCOTUS abandons their oath, makes a decision that is basically rewriting the Constitution. That decision becomes precedent from which a number of lower court decisions derive. Some of them even interpreting in their own rewrites thusly.

    That's the problem when you allow the courts to do what the people should be doing.
    So every single court that has ruled on same sex marriage doesn't understand how the courts are supposed to function. And that sounds reasonable to you?

    Right-oh.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    On what basis should a government sanction a marriage? On what basis should a marriage not be sanctioned?
    since "sanction" is very vague and subjective youll have to be more specific?

    all legal contracts are sanctioned by the government
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