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Thread: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q[W:487:681]

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    ROFLMAO, interesting how BLS, BEA, and the Treasury disagrees with an op ed piece from the Orlando Liberal Examiner. You people are really desperate to save an incompetent in the WH
    I'm not interested in saving the incompetent in the Whitehouse. My post you quoted speaks to earlier incompetents in the Whitehouse.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I'm not interested in saving the incompetent in the Whitehouse.
    My post you quoted speaks to earlier incompetents in the Whitehouse.
    See how he made you move the goalpost to him by you just criticizing Obama only.
    No discussion of today's House of collapse.
    No comparisons to 20 of 28 years of deficits from the GOP back through Reagan.

    Calls all graphs and facts he doesn't like "liberal" and from the "left", as if he thinks that dismisses them .
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    See how he made you move the goalpost to him by you just criticizing Obama only.
    No discussion of today's House of collapse.
    No comparisons to 20 of 28 years of deficits from the GOP back through Reagan.

    Calls all graphs and facts he doesn't like "liberal" and from the "left", as if he thinks that dismisses them .
    I was trying to hold it in place!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #294
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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Please read what I wrote. I am including war spending in the figures I'm using.



    Egads.

    The problem with using some official numbers in this discussion is that, yet again... Bush put the war off-budget. If you're looking at documents generated during the Bush years, you will miss a big chunk of military spending.

    The Obama administration put the war spending back into the budget for its figures. In addition, other costs like health care for veterans won't be broken out clearly. So, I typically use the data released by the OMB in more recent years, as they include ALL the spending by ALL the Presidents, and 3rd parties (which do most of the hard work for you).

    Here's the FY2015 figures. What you want to look at for expenses are tables 3.1 and 3.2: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...ssets/hist.pdf

    And: Study: Iraq, Afghan war costs to top $4 trillion - The Washington Post



    See the above OMB chart, and History of the United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    No matter how you slice it, the simple fact is that the debt did grow by a significant amount under Bush 43. That's what happens when you wage two wars, offer a new entitlement, and cut taxes at the same time. Even if you somehow believe he "only" increased it to 73%, then Bush 43 increased the debt-to-GDP ratio just as much as Obama, while Clinton actually reduced the debt-to-GDP ration by about 10%. Please, face facts.



    This is not about who deserves what. It's just a simple fact that the Bush tax cuts resulted in the federal government receiving significantly lower revenues, than if the cuts had not been enacted.



    Egads.

    OK, let's go over some basic budgeting.

    (Fiscal Year Revenues) - (Fiscal Year Expenditures) = Fiscal Year Deficits or Surpluses

    When you put in a tax cut, it means less revenues. When you have less revenues in a year with more expenditures than revenues, that's going to increase the deficit.

    It doesn't matter if you happen to cut taxes and, due to other factors, revenues go up. You are still collecting less in revenues than you would have, if you cut taxes.

    Get it?



    'Kay

    The idea that "tax cuts increase tax revenues" simply does not apply here, because we are nowhere near the Laffer Curve.
    Economist's View: Yet Again, Tax Cuts Do Not Pay for Themselves
    No, New Tax Cuts Will Not Pay for Themselves | Economic Policy Institute
    Art Laffer Did Not Say Anything So Stupid As All Tax Cuts Pay For Themselves - Forbes

    Or, to put it another way:

    People don't hire employees because they got a break on estate taxes. CEO's definitely don't hire more people because of a cut in their personal tax rate; in fact, if laying people off boosts the stock price, and the CEO is compensated with stock, he is more likely to fire people because of a cut in capital gains taxes. If I own a small business, and I buy a bunch of IBM stock, and sell it 5 years later, and get a 5% break on capital gains, it's not likely to convince me to hire another employee at my business. A bank is not going to split off a high-frequency trading unit because of a 2% tax increase. A hedge fund manager is not going to close up shop because the carried interest tax rate on his personal income goes up 10%. I find it somewhat hard to believe that when you did your taxes in 2003, you saw that you'd save 5% on your personal income taxes compared to 2000, and on that basis decided to hire an additional staffer at your business.

    What drove the economy during the Bush 43 years? Mostly a real estate and financial bubble, which was well under way before Congress enacted the Bush tax cuts. The economic benefits of the Bush tax cuts did not spark that bubble.



    No, I understand that this is exactly how Medicare works, and it's how single-payer systems work around the world. I also recognize that you're engaging in the fallacy of composition.



    egads

    Again: I am talking about aggregate spending. It doesn't matter that Bush kept the war spending out of the DOD budget, it doesn't matter that some defense spending is discretionary while some is non-discretionary. None of that matters.



    No, they really couldn't. The Republicans would have undoubtedly filibustered any attempt to retire the cuts early, and extending them was part of the 2010 relief package.



    And I'm waiting for you to recognize that the figures you're citing as the 2015 $3.9 trillion budget INCLUDE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE.



    I'm sorry, but statements like this make it obvious that you don't understand economics. Inflation induced by a government printing up money, and using it to pay the government's bills, will undoubtedly cause inflation regardless of other macroeconomic conditions. In fact, that type of inflationary pressure will cause other problems like unemployment. We see exactly this in Zimbabwe, where Mugabe printed up currency to pay for government expenditures.



    Again, read my post. These types of economic analyses and predictions are not being put out by the Obama administration.
    I am done with you as obviously you are so married to an ideology that even facts get in the way. One more time and I am going to bold it, THE DEFICIT INCLUDES BOTH ON BUDGET AND OFF BUDGET ITEMS so it doesn't matter, it is still part of the 10.6 trillion left to Obama. What did Obama do about it, signed the 2009 budget adding the stimulus, GM/Chrysler takeover, Afghanistan supplemental items, recycled TARP repayments and like good little soldiers you blame Bush for that deficit.

    Sorry but you are simply too naive, gullible and poorly informed to continue this. Let me know when when you can explain why SS and Medicare are even part of the budget and why we need a 3.9 trillion dollar budget or a 2.5 trillion dollar budget without Medicare and SS?

  5. #295
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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    Obama's results? Do you seriously believe that any president has that much control over a country? You've got to be kidding me. It was a horrible winter and a lot of people died here. I can easily believe that the economy took a hit because of it. Just like the economy would take a hit if there was a hurricane or a tornado. I don't know why you think there's any correlation between a Texas winter that had 4 days that were below 32 degrees for the entire 24 hours and a Minnesota winter that had 58 days below ZERO! You guys had four days that were below 32 and we had 23 in January alone (the other days got up to 32 or 33 for a few hours). Your winter forced you to wear a jacket, ours forced us to stop living our lives for three months. We had 60 inches of snow.

    There was one winter in the 80s that was, supposedly, as bad for the US as a whole. It was the winter of 1981-1982. And the economy fell more than 6% after that winter, so maybe that's not the best example. But unlike you, I wouldn't think Reagan had anything to do with that, because Presidents are mainly sock puppets and have very little control over the country.
    I understand that leadership isn't something you understand but I certainly would like to know exactly what Obama didn't get that he wanted from the Democrat controlled Congress in 2009-2010. Leadership is about talking responsibility and not placing blame.

    You don't seem to get it, we contracted almost 3% so a 3% gain in the second quarter puts us back to zero. In an economy that contracted like it did in 2008 should be in the 6-7% range creating hundreds of thousands of jobs. That isn't going to happen with liberal economic policies

    I find liberal excuse making tiresome and a waste of time to respond. there is a reason Obama has such poor JAR numbers, maybe you can figure them out. As long as you have such low expectations that is always what you are going to get.

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It's not just a liberal thing. It's something that grips and perpetuates a faulty system. It is partisanship. The blame of all that's wrong in Washington is on the partisans that protect their party first and America second. Democrats hate EO's when there's a republican president and vice versa. Democrats hate the use of the IRS against political rivals when there's a republican president, and of course the opposite is true, and I could go on like that all day. The point is, partisanship is the greatest enemy attacked the least.

    Oh, and the Bush tax cuts did primarily benefit the rich.

    Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say.

    Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say - The Washington Post
    $28 billion of a $3++ trillion spend.

    Wow. That will make all the difference in the world. Not.

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It's not just a liberal thing. It's something that grips and perpetuates a faulty system. It is partisanship. The blame of all that's wrong in Washington is on the partisans that protect their party first and America second. Democrats hate EO's when there's a republican president and vice versa. Democrats hate the use of the IRS against political rivals when there's a republican president, and of course the opposite is true, and I could go on like that all day. The point is, partisanship is the greatest enemy attacked the least.

    Oh, and the Bush tax cuts did primarily benefit the rich.

    Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say.

    Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say - The Washington Post
    Wow, 28 billion dollars out of a 3.7 TRILLION dollar budget!! Incredible, that would fund the govt. for how many days?

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wow, 28 billion dollars out of a 3.7 TRILLION dollar budget!! Incredible, that would fund the govt. for how many days?
    Great minds.....

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    People DO have to shop at Walmart. And this country suffered under the heavy hand of oppressive big business during the industrial revolution up until the 1930's when regulation, unions and a host of benifits were bestowed upon the working man which resulted in the building of the largest and strongest middle class in history. The war against the unions, as well as deregulation has reversed those gains and the pendulum swings back. But the pendulum never goes over the top, it reaches its extreme and it pushes back in the opposite direction. What's unfortunate is that it rarely/never stops in the middle.

    Capitalism isn't a problem for me, and you haven't seen me make such an argument. Capitalism of necessity must be regulated and governed, because as was pointed out long ago, "men are not angels"

    I don't wish to see an imbalance either way, in favor of labor or business!
    I suggest you move if you have a problem with only having Walmart. You are very misguided and poorly informed making your opinions factual and actual data opinions. Risk taking isn't something you understand nor are personal behaviors. People choose where they are going to shop and unlike you they choose Walmart. I couldn't care either way and am not trying to regulate Walmart out of the economy. What does any of that have to do with the thread topic?

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    Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wow, 28 billion dollars out of a 3.7 TRILLION dollar budget!! Incredible, that would fund the govt. for how many days?
    It's not the dollar amount, its the ideology!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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