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Thread: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Look, Congress is as much to blame as anyone. Both houses. I am a disabled vet. I used to use the Phoenix VA. It sucks like a bucket of ticks. Many vets in Arizona knew that before the fit hit the shan. I complained to my congressional representatives and I know other vets who have as well. In frustration, before the debacle went public I finally moved my VA service to Tucson. Sure it's a 2 hour drive, but you actually get appointments.

    Congress knew long before a physician blew the whistle and Congress - both parties - did jack ****. Somebody, anybody, show me where Congress addressed the issue and took action before the lid blew off. Someone show me where Congress approached the President, where Shinseki approached the President and informed him of what was happening.

    I did not vote for Obama, but blaming Obama for the VA debacle is partisan hackery. Blame the VA, then blame both houses and both parties, then blame the American people. Where are all those yellow ribbon sumbitches now?
    Im sorry for your experience. But Obama is the head of the 4th largest govt department, as he is with the rest of his cabinet.
    He ran on fixing this, he ignored recommendations, and here we are 6 years in and vets are dying.

    Its not ok, and its too important to ignore.

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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Im sorry for your experience. But Obama is the head of the 4th largest govt department, as he is with the rest of his cabinet.
    He ran on fixing this, he ignored recommendations, and here we are 6 years in and vets are dying.

    Its not ok, and its too important to ignore.
    Quoting the best source I know: "I did not vote for Obama, but blaming Obama for the VA debacle is partisan hackery. Blame the VA, then blame both houses and both parties, then blame the American people. Where are all those yellow ribbon sumbitches now?"










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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I practice medicine and am well aware of the problems involved. But this is evidence that govt run healthcare has quite a negative impact, the same govt run healthcare that our forums socialists seem to want to push us toward.

    At that point-there wont be competition or a desire to please the customer (tax payer) and since the govt can run in the red and privates cant-where are you going to go at that point? Nowhere, because they dont care and already got what they want.

    I could share my patients horror stories with you-but I doubt they'd persuade you of anything.
    No it isn't. It is something that happens due to human nature. It has nothing to do with the system being run by the government.

    There are plenty of patient horror stories to go around, in both private healthcare and the VA system. The VA's biggest problems though are underfunding and not enough resources (such as doctors, nurses, facilities) as are needed for the amount of vets we have that can use those services. When you place unreasonable expectations on people they tend to do things that they shouldn't do to meet or make it appear that they have met those expectations. Add into that the fact that we do have people who are lazy in both private and public jobs that are meant to perform audits, and you end up with these results. It doesn't mean that you don't hold people responsible for their actions (or lack of actions). But you don't scrap the whole system or place blame on people who had little to nothing to do with it.

    So far, all I've seen from you is complaining and blame. No suggestion on how to fix the system besides "leave it to the private practice" or "get the government out of it". Well then where exactly are these vets supposed to go when they can't afford private medicine? Who is going to pay for it? The government, like they are currently doing. In fact, there proposed fix is to allow vets to use private medical facilities that they will pay for if it takes over a certain amount of time for an appointment. We wouldn't need such a deal if we simply had single-payer because they could use any healthcare facility near them without needing to wait for them to be approved. Or we could give all vets TriCare at either reduced or no cost to cover these issues and it can be used all over the country. It would still be government run healthcare though.
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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Quoting the best source I know: "I did not vote for Obama, but blaming Obama for the VA debacle is partisan hackery. Blame the VA, then blame both houses and both parties, then blame the American people. Where are all those yellow ribbon sumbitches now?"
    Obama said he was going to clean it up. Did that happen?

    While I generally loathe that so many people have no idea whats going on and yes govt reflects us. I think that most people want vets to be taken care of, but there was much that wasn't known until the press started digging.

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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No it isn't. It is something that happens due to human nature. It has nothing to do with the system being run by the government.

    There are plenty of patient horror stories to go around, in both private healthcare and the VA system. The VA's biggest problems though are underfunding and not enough resources (such as doctors, nurses, facilities) as are needed for the amount of vets we have that can use those services. When you place unreasonable expectations on people they tend to do things that they shouldn't do to meet or make it appear that they have met those expectations. Add into that the fact that we do have people who are lazy in both private and public jobs that are meant to perform audits, and you end up with these results. It doesn't mean that you don't hold people responsible for their actions (or lack of actions). But you don't scrap the whole system or place blame on people who had little to nothing to do with it.

    So far, all I've seen from you is complaining and blame. No suggestion on how to fix the system besides "leave it to the private practice" or "get the government out of it". Well then where exactly are these vets supposed to go when they can't afford private medicine? Who is going to pay for it? The government, like they are currently doing. In fact, there proposed fix is to allow vets to use private medical facilities that they will pay for if it takes over a certain amount of time for an appointment. We wouldn't need such a deal if we simply had single-payer because they could use any healthcare facility near them without needing to wait for them to be approved. Or we could give all vets TriCare at either reduced or no cost to cover these issues and it can be used all over the country. It would still be government run healthcare though.
    The left has never recognized human nature, its ironic but unsurprising that you would not assign blame where it lies. As if the govt is just some disinterested spectator incapable of being fixed that merely stumbled upon this disaster.

    This is what single payer would be if implemented. The ACA and the these deaths are evidence of what would be to come. When you remove the initiative and incentive to keep people satisfied with their healthcare, you are leaving the consumer worse off.

    I have plenty of ideas regarding this issue, but the left has dismissed them out of hand (as with healthcare costs outside the VA).

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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    The left has never recognized human nature, its ironic but unsurprising that you would not assign blame where it lies. As if the govt is just some disinterested spectator incapable of being fixed that merely stumbled upon this disaster.

    This is what single payer would be if implemented. The ACA and the these deaths are evidence of what would be to come. When you remove the initiative and incentive to keep people satisfied with their healthcare, you are leaving the consumer worse off.

    I have plenty of ideas regarding this issue, but the left has dismissed them out of hand (as with healthcare costs outside the VA).
    The government isn't what needs fixing in this particular case. The way the system works for the given circumstances is what needs to be fixed. It is capable of being fixed, but both sides are too busy fighting to work towards it. They both want to place partisan-based blame, just as you are doing.

    This is nothing like single payer healthcare because there are alternatives to the VA system available for most vets, including other government insurances, employee insurance (or it should be), Medicare, and even other private charity healthcare.

    I don't agree with the ACA at all. But that too is not single payer healthcare. That is not UHC/NHS. It is Universally mandated Health Insurance, something that the right pushed for back in the 80s and even 90s.
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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    In the US, medical errors kill about 98,000 people a year.

    Preventable Medical Errors

    An estimated 18,000-26,000 adults in the US die each year because they didn't have insurance to pay for medical procedures.

    Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs

    Over 26,000 annual deaths for uninsured: report | Reuters

    In fact, many of those veterans could have possibly been saved had they had either a) insurance so they didn't have to rely on the VA or b) access to affordable healthcare that was closer or able to see them sooner, again so they didn't have to rely on the overcrowded VA system.

    Plus, why only Obama? According to your article, those vets died over the last decade, not just the last 6 years. What about that other 4 years? What about the Congresses during that time, who actually fund the VA system, which was being overcrowded and forced to work with resources far below what they needed to actually care for all the vets that rely on them?

    “Over the past decade, more than 1,000 veterans may have died as a result of VA’s misconduct and the VA has paid out nearly $1 billion to veterans and their families for its medical malpractice.”

    Read more: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says - Washington Times
    Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
    The topic is the VA not other facilities.

    Come on, you are saying vets should buy private insurance when they already are supposed to be covered. Sure, were all 1%ers and just have all this extra money to throw around, right? We have already paid a heavy price for VA care, why should we be required to pay more instead of insisting on what we already earned be made to improve the quality?

    VA only covers service related injuries for free unless you have a high enough disability rating, then you become a priority patient and all care is free. Even without insurance, sure they will see you just like a regular hospital and send a bill which they probably right off if you are unable to pay, like other facilities.

    Some of us also have Tri-Care for life. Big deal. The copays on it keep going up as well as the annual limit on copays. Very costly when we were promised free healthcare for ourselves and our dependents after twenty years of service.

    Obama is taking a large chunk of the blame because he is the current HNIC but you are correct that he shouldn't take all the blame only for what was done on his watch.
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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    The topic is the VA not other facilities.

    Come on, you are saying vets should buy private insurance when they already are supposed to be covered. Sure, were all 1%ers and just have all this extra money to throw around, right? We have already paid a heavy price for VA care, why should we be required to pay more instead of insisting on what we already earned be made to improve the quality?

    VA only covers service related injuries for free unless you have a high enough disability rating, then you become a priority patient and all care is free. Even without insurance, sure they will see you just like a regular hospital and send a bill which they probably right off if you are unable to pay, like other facilities.

    Some of us also have Tri-Care for life. Big deal. The copays on it keep going up as well as the annual limit on copays. Very costly when we were promised free healthcare for ourselves and our dependents after twenty years of service.

    Obama is taking a large chunk of the blame because he is the current HNIC but you are correct that he shouldn't take all the blame only for what was done on his watch.
    Most vets, like myself, have to buy extra insurance because we are not covered under the VA and didn't stay active for 20 years to qualify for TriCare for Life. As I've been saying, most vets can only use the VA system for service-related disabilities, which most receive very little recognition of. For instance, I'm going in today for an MRI on my knee. I will be using TriCare Reserve, not the VA because I didn't find out about the problem til after I've been out for 6 years and it could be difficult and take quite some time to convince the VA that it was service connected. Very few have a high enough rating to qualify for the VA to cover everything.

    I am for a UHC which would mean that no vet would have to worry about high premiums or deductibles/copays or massive waiting times for care. They would all be covered. At the very least, I am for treating all vets better, not just those who spent 20 years in. Perhaps a combination years in/income adjusted system for all vets. But that doesn't change where the problems lie in the current system, and it does not prove in any way that the government cannot handle a medical system. It only shows that some in government service make poor choices when it comes to dealing with pressure. And that our Congress critters should be actually listening to the vets, looking into what is really going on in these situations, and stop giving into media or public pressure to fix something quickly rather than in a way that will work. You cannot fix a problem by simply making demands, particularly unreasonable demands, on the workers and expect them not to cut corners in a way that is going to cause more serious problems. And that is what was done.
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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Most vets, like myself, have to buy extra insurance because we are not covered under the VA and didn't stay active for 20 years to qualify for TriCare for Life. As I've been saying, most vets can only use the VA system for service-related disabilities, which most receive very little recognition of. For instance, I'm going in today for an MRI on my knee. I will be using TriCare Reserve, not the VA because I didn't find out about the problem til after I've been out for 6 years and it could be difficult and take quite some time to convince the VA that it was service connected. Very few have a high enough rating to qualify for the VA to cover everything.

    I am for a UHC which would mean that no vet would have to worry about high premiums or deductibles/copays or massive waiting times for care. They would all be covered. At the very least, I am for treating all vets better, not just those who spent 20 years in. Perhaps a combination years in/income adjusted system for all vets. But that doesn't change where the problems lie in the current system, and it does not prove in any way that the government cannot handle a medical system. It only shows that some in government service make poor choices when it comes to dealing with pressure. And that our Congress critters should be actually listening to the vets, looking into what is really going on in these situations, and stop giving into media or public pressure to fix something quickly rather than in a way that will work. You cannot fix a problem by simply making demands, particularly unreasonable demands, on the workers and expect them not to cut corners in a way that is going to cause more serious problems. And that is what was done.
    UHC is nothing but more socialist BS. Giving out to the lazy what others struggled hard and worked for. Thats BS, if someone doesn't work for and earn it for themselves, they shouldn't be given it. That goes for housing, food, water and healthcare. It is illogical to waste limited resources on those who only contribute negatively to society and who are totally worthless as individuals.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Poor care at VA hospitals cost 1,000 veterans their lives, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    UHC is nothing but more socialist BS. Giving out to the lazy what others struggled hard and worked for. Thats BS, if someone doesn't work for and earn it for themselves, they shouldn't be given it. That goes for housing, food, water and healthcare. It is illogical to waste limited resources on those who only contribute negatively to society and who are totally worthless as individuals.
    Except we already spend more on those "lazy" than any other country with a UHC does per person because we will never turn people away that are dying but can't paying.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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