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Thread: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those Christian faiths believe that they have been inspired by Jesus. You don't get to tell them they are wrong just because they view the teachings of Jesus differently than you. That is committing the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
    It's easy enough to see whether or not they are following the teachings of Jesus by watching them in action and then deciding if it related to anything Jesus said, did or taught. The 'No True Scotsman' argument doesn't apply here, by the way.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not just them. There are plenty of different groups of Christians out there who believe women should be subservient to men according to the Bible (heck, passages in the NT can even be found to support this notion) or that faith can allow a person to handle snakes without getting bitten or that it can make people talk in tongues or expel demons. There are also Christians that would kill people in accordance with what they believe are their beliefs. America does not have the only Christians in the world. And even here in America, there are at least some Christians who believe people should be put to death for various "sins" even for actions which do not cause harm to others. Other Christians may not go as far as to want to condemn a person to die for something like homosexuality or adultery or fornication, but there are still plenty who would like to incarcerate or exile or physically punish people who commit these and even other sins. Such as those two preachers just in the last couple of years who made the news for preaching about putting gays behind fences to allow them to die out or slapping little boys who were "too feminine", and more than just 50 or even 100 people agreed with them. Not only were these sermons accepted pretty well by their congregations, but others around the country voiced support for their ideas as well (although yes, they are a small minority, but so are Muslim extremists, despite some popular beliefs by some).
    So, briefly put, there are a variety of beliefs among Christians.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those Christian faiths believe that they have been inspired by Jesus. You don't get to tell them they are wrong just because they view the teachings of Jesus differently than you. That is committing the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
    Perhaps you can point out which lesson you're referring to and then we can look at to see how it's being interpreted and by whom. Otherwise this leads nowhere.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    A good way to test your theory would be to look at countries not based on Christian values and see if you can spot any differences.
    You mean countries like Colombia? Mexico? El Salvador? Nicaragua? Venezuela? Guess what all those countries have had within the last 30 years.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You mean countries like Colombia? Mexico? El Salvador? Nicaragua? Venezuela? Guess what all those countries have had within the last 30 years.
    You almost got the idea but I said countries NOT based on Christian values. Why not try again?

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You almost got the idea but I said countries NOT based on Christian values. Why not try again?
    Here is nuke's statement:

    The problem with this argument is that it assumes that our most important values are Christian. They aren't. Even if you can show that Christianity shared some of our most important values, it does not prove that they are solely Christian values. That those values would not exist without Christianity or Christian influence.
    Colombia, Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador etc. were founded by Christians. Yet they couldn't be further from the US in terms of politics, culture and economy. Why is that?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's not quite what I said, or perhaps I phrased it poorly. There are some truths that 'ring eternal', and the Golden Rule is one of them. What I was referring to was more like the sexual revolution, or acid rain concerns, or ideas such as The Lost Generation, the Beat Generation, and so on, which eventually tend to fall out of fashion while Christianity survives
    .
    I'm all for sexual equality just as I support gender equality. To not be for either is, I believe, anti Christian. I can understand those who argue about traditional marriage but since divorce was made easier traditional marriage itself has crumbled, making their argument less viable. Western culture is still learning to deal with this new phenomenon but, overall, I think it's doing okay.

    Perhaps, but this ability to reason will not necessary lead to the right conclusions.

    Yes, we learn from our environment and we are taught our 'reasoning skills' through that. The bascis may be there but the outcome isn't a certainty. We have the ability to learn but that learning might also not be 'reasonable'.

    I don't identify God with any religion and I used that example as something to reflect upon. Of course CC Lewis went into greater and more thoughtful detail than i was able to do.

    C.S. Lewis and Conscience | Ark and Architecture
    Those things you mentioned have not been "proven" wrong though. There is nothing wrong with the "sexual revolution". It has had good consequences along with some bad. But just because you feel that the bad might outweigh any good does not mean that it has been "proven wrong". Not everyone agrees with you. And acid rain is a concern. Not sure why you think it wouldn't be. Just because some may have overblown such things, does not mean that the majority of those concerns about acid rain are unfounded. Plus, that really wasn't something that I can think of any younger generation embracing completely. Most people were more like "oh acid rain causes bad things to happen to buildings, and can have negative consequences in other things, got it". It really wasn't some major concern by a majority of any generation that I know of.

    Christianity adapted, just as many religions do. There are over 41000 different denominations of Christianity. That means that it didn't just survive, it adapted, just as cultures adapt to changes. You are attempting to compare fads of eras to religious beliefs. They really aren't comparable. Religions aren't fads (not most of them anyway).

    I believe one of the problems is that you view there as being a "right" solution to something that possibly doesn't have a "right" answer. What is "right" in a moral sense is subjective. Until/unless a god or higher power reveals him/her-self to us in a way that is provable, not simply "well God inspired me/him/her", then we, as individuals, determine our own morality. Most of it will come from things we learn, a lot of that will be from what we learn early in life. But it doesn't make any of those morals objectively wrong. It is like asking "is it wrong to kill". Many people will almost automatically say "yes". I wouldn't. I would say it depends on the circumstances, the reason for why you are killing. Most people have circumstances that they see as morally "okay" to kill. We kill other animals and plants all the time for sustenance. Most people see no issue in killing bacteria, fungus, or viruses to protect themselves. In fact, self-defense from anything trying to kill you is generally an accepted reason to kill without it being viewed as morally wrong. But there could be some people out there who disagree. (Although it would be really hard to never kill anything.)
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So, briefly put, there are a variety of beliefs among Christians.
    I think it would be most accurate to say that there is a massive variety of beliefs among Christians. Hence the 41000 denominations of Christianity, and probably as many varying beliefs or more beyond those base denominational beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    How many people has the Westboro Church killed when compared with Muslim fanatics? Any idea?

    Have you done any research of how many Christians are keeping women subservient compared with Muslims? Snake handlers? I doubt that was inspired by the teachings of Jesus.
    Christianity thru the centuries has probably kill more people than all other religions put together so I'd get off that high horse.

    And as for treatment of women....only very very recently has that changed...even our American laws made women subservient...and some STILL do. However just like in Islam, most of those women do so willingly to follow their religion. I feel that in both cases the women are misguided but in the majority of cases on both sides it is done by ignorance and indoctrination, not force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhaps you can point out which lesson you're referring to and then we can look at to see how it's being interpreted and by whom. Otherwise this leads nowhere.
    Why? It doesn't matter where they get their beliefs from. One good example is Mormons. They believe that Jesus gave additional lessons to other people after his resurrection. Should other Christians discount them as Christians just because they don't believe that Jesus's death and the immediate few days after were the ending of his teachings? Another is the beliefs of those in UCC churches and other churches that believe homosexuality as not sinful. There are Christians who believe that the passages in the Bible referring to homosexuality were translated wrong and/or have been interpreted to be against homosexuality when they are really against ritual sex. There are Christians who interpret Jesus saying that wives should submit to their husbands as meaning that wives should always do what their husbands ask of them and their husbands have final say in their decisions.

    Then there is the belief that the Bible, not just those words that are believed to be from Jesus, is inspired by God. Many Christians believe this. So if these Christians believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God, then that would mean that they accept more than just Jesus's teachings as how they should live their life, especially in areas where Jesus's teachings may have been vague or when they feel that they are not violating Jesus's teachings, even if others feel they are.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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