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Thread: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

  1. #201
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Those who were for racial inequality were proven wrong and were not supporting the idea of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This is a very old idea but an example of how many can still forget it.
    It's the 'at least to a point' where the differences begin. And some people never have. They can live in their immediate environment in which they were raised but once removed they can not cope on their own.
    CC Lewis asked why man has a conscience, and it's an interesting question. Why do we have one and where did it come from? Did evolve just as our thumbs did? Or was it placed there by God, as Lewis suggests.
    But just that someone was proven wrong was not the initial assertion. You said that the younger generations are eventually proven wrong when they are on the cutting edge of social change/thought. The ones pushing for equality were those on the cutting edge of social change/thought, not those who were for inequality. We weren't talking about "do unto others" with that conversation. You are attempting to steer it away.

    Those pushing for racial equality are similar to those pushing for sex/gender equality within marriage or equality in how different sexualities are treated. Those who are for treating the genders/sexes differently when it comes to marriage or the different sexualities different when it comes to other issues are the ones who are not following the Golden Rule. You cannot possibly say that trying to legally prevent people from being allowed to legally marry or adopt/raise children just because someone believes it is a sin, despite not doing the same thing to others who sin, is "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you".

    It doesn't matter if it is only a little bit, the ability to reason is still found in our DNA.

    Wrong. Every person has some ability to reason, even if it is very limited, unless they had some environmental issue take that ability away from them, which would have them living a life which required someone else to do things for them. In order to learn very basic tasks, such as feeding ourselves or getting dressed or even communicating with each other, a person must have some very basic reasoning skills.

    We don't know. It could have been either of those. That is a question people have been asking themselves for a long time and has very little to do with the OP, since no one knows what caused us to have a conscience, and even if it were a god/higher power, that does not mean that it has to be the God/higher power that certain groups of people believe in.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #202
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The customs of the Church may differ but the similarities tend to compensate for these differences. Certainly atheists can have ideals but they tend t coincide with the teaching of Jesus rather than the teachings of Mohammed, or any other religion. And of course in a Christian influenced country we can freely have this conversation, which is not so in many other parts of the world.
    First of all, we aren't talking about the customs of churches. We are talking about the values of people. Atheists have values that are diverse as well. As do Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and people from basically every major religion on this planet. It is only when you get to really small groups that the values become very similar, but even then, individuals will have values that still differ from their church. And we can't really know every single one of Jesus's values.

    And Muhammad valued a lot of things that many Christians value, including family, faith, life, mind, wealth, and justice or liberty. Whether you want to believe it or not, Muslims are not that different than either Christians or Jews in their beliefs, especially when you look at individual, every day Muslims, rather than judging them by the acts of the extremists. There are some great similarities between faithful Muslims and many Christian religions. Even in their customs.

    Christianity is not why we can "freely have this conversation", freedom of speech is. The ideal belief in liberty is why we can speak our minds and discuss controversial matters. There are plenty of Christians that have, and even some who still try to, tried to prevent people from being different or teaching different ideas or faiths. The fact that our (as in Americans') ancestors left England because they weren't free to practice their faiths freely is why. But that doesn't mean that even all those who came here believed that everyone should be free to practice whatever faith they wanted to. Not everyone was for freedom of religion in the US (even now, there are those who believe that the government should enforce a religion, Christianity mainly, or at least the beliefs of a religion, within the US).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #203
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    How many people has the Westboro Church killed when compared with Muslim fanatics? Any idea?

    Have you done any research of how many Christians are keeping women subservient compared with Muslims? Snake handlers? I doubt that was inspired by the teachings of Jesus.
    Those Christian faiths believe that they have been inspired by Jesus. You don't get to tell them they are wrong just because they view the teachings of Jesus differently than you. That is committing the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #204
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    No Chrisitians are not under attack. What is under attack is the discrimination that Christians want to do.

    What I find hilarious is the same backery that wouldn't make a cake for a gay wedding because thy said the SANCTITY of marriage was too important, made a cake for a dog wedding. That's the type of BS that gets called out on Christians.
    Question for you on that. Does a private business have the right to refuse service?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    The same thing that frightens me about Muslims, Hindus and all others whom take Peter Pan fairy tales seriously.

    Really? Hmmm...sounds irrational.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those Christian faiths believe that they have been inspired by Jesus. You don't get to tell them they are wrong just because they view the teachings of Jesus differently than you. That is committing the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
    If you're talking about Westboro Baptist, which is comprised of 50+ people, I would tell them that their distortion of Christianity is a delight to their real author. Oh, and I would call them heretics, which is what they are.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    If you're talking about Westboro Baptist, which is comprised of 50+ people, I would tell them that their distortion of Christianity is a delight to their real author. Oh, and I would call them heretics, which is what they are.
    Not just them. There are plenty of different groups of Christians out there who believe women should be subservient to men according to the Bible (heck, passages in the NT can even be found to support this notion) or that faith can allow a person to handle snakes without getting bitten or that it can make people talk in tongues or expel demons. There are also Christians that would kill people in accordance with what they believe are their beliefs. America does not have the only Christians in the world. And even here in America, there are at least some Christians who believe people should be put to death for various "sins" even for actions which do not cause harm to others. Other Christians may not go as far as to want to condemn a person to die for something like homosexuality or adultery or fornication, but there are still plenty who would like to incarcerate or exile or physically punish people who commit these and even other sins. Such as those two preachers just in the last couple of years who made the news for preaching about putting gays behind fences to allow them to die out or slapping little boys who were "too feminine", and more than just 50 or even 100 people agreed with them. Not only were these sermons accepted pretty well by their congregations, but others around the country voiced support for their ideas as well (although yes, they are a small minority, but so are Muslim extremists, despite some popular beliefs by some).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Question for you on that. Does a private business have the right to refuse service?
    In some cases yes in some cases no. I don't believe a business should have the right to refuse service to someone because they are black. Do you believe a business should be able to refuse service based on color of skin?

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But just that someone was proven wrong was not the initial assertion. You said that the younger generations are eventually proven wrong when they are on the cutting edge of social change/thought. The ones pushing for equality were those on the cutting edge of social change/thought, not those who were for inequality. We weren't talking about "do unto others" with that conversation. You are attempting to steer it away
    . That's not quite what I said, or perhaps I phrased it poorly. There are some truths that 'ring eternal', and the Golden Rule is one of them. What I was referring to was more like the sexual revolution, or acid rain concerns, or ideas such as The Lost Generation, the Beat Generation, and so on, which eventually tend to fall out of fashion while Christianity survives
    .
    Those pushing for racial equality are similar to those pushing for sex/gender equality within marriage or equality in how different sexualities are treated. Those who are for treating the genders/sexes differently when it comes to marriage or the different sexualities different when it comes to other issues are the ones who are not following the Golden Rule. You cannot possibly say that trying to legally prevent people from being allowed to legally marry or adopt/raise children just because someone believes it is a sin, despite not doing the same thing to others who sin, is "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you".
    I'm all for sexual equality just as I support gender equality. To not be for either is, I believe, anti Christian. I can understand those who argue about traditional marriage but since divorce was made easier traditional marriage itself has crumbled, making their argument less viable. Western culture is still learning to deal with this new phenomenon but, overall, I think it's doing okay.

    It doesn't matter if it is only a little bit, the ability to reason is still found in our DNA.
    Perhaps, but this ability to reason will not necessary lead to the right conclusions.

    Wrong. Every person has some ability to reason, even if it is very limited, unless they had some environmental issue take that ability away from them, which would have them living a life which required someone else to do things for them. In order to learn very basic tasks, such as feeding ourselves or getting dressed or even communicating with each other, a person must have some very basic reasoning skills
    Yes, we learn from our environment and we are taught our 'reasoning skills' through that. The bascis may be there but the outcome isn't a certainty. We have the ability to learn but that learning might also not be 'reasonable'.

    We don't know. It could have been either of those. That is a question people have been asking themselves for a long time and has very little to do with the OP, since no one knows what caused us to have a conscience, and even if it were a god/higher power, that does not mean that it has to be the God/higher power that certain groups of people believe in.
    I don't identify God with any religion and I used that example as something to reflect upon. Of course CC Lewis went into greater and more thoughtful detail than i was able to do.

    C.S. Lewis and Conscience | Ark and Architecture

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, we aren't talking about the customs of churches. We are talking about the values of people. Atheists have values that are diverse as well. As do Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and people from basically every major religion on this planet. It is only when you get to really small groups that the values become very similar, but even then, individuals will have values that still differ from their church. And we can't really know every single one of Jesus's values.

    And Muhammad valued a lot of things that many Christians value, including family, faith, life, mind, wealth, and justice or liberty. Whether you want to believe it or not, Muslims are not that different than either Christians or Jews in their beliefs, especially when you look at individual, every day Muslims, rather than judging them by the acts of the extremists. There are some great similarities between faithful Muslims and many Christian religions. Even in their customs.

    Christianity is not why we can "freely have this conversation", freedom of speech is. The ideal belief in liberty is why we can speak our minds and discuss controversial matters. There are plenty of Christians that have, and even some who still try to, tried to prevent people from being different or teaching different ideas or faiths. The fact that our (as in Americans') ancestors left England because they weren't free to practice their faiths freely is why. But that doesn't mean that even all those who came here believed that everyone should be free to practice whatever faith they wanted to. Not everyone was for freedom of religion in the US (even now, there are those who believe that the government should enforce a religion, Christianity mainly, or at least the beliefs of a religion, within the US).
    It seems to me that those who try to stifle free speech, quite common now in the Universities and among the PC, are less likely to be Christian. The concept of "Hate Speech" being introduced into law in some of the democracies has also not been lobbied by Christians.

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