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Thread: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It is not remotely the govt's job to support or remedy that (if that is what you are implying.)

    If there is a lack in any religious communities or organizations/churches, then it is their responsibility and the responsibility of their members to act. A good start is faithfully and consistently acting according to one's beliefs. Every individual can do that and the govt does not interfere with that.
    Exactly! And not that I've never claimed otherwise. Nonetheless, we Americans do tend to put a lot of emphasis on our nation's President being a pseudo-religious example. I mean, we (media) tends to question whether or not the President attends church, if he prays, condemn him if he doesn't invoke God when concluding a speech and yet if he doesn't demonstrate his Christian faith somehow it makes him...un-American?

    On the one hand I can understand it. The President is the Chief Executive for the country, it's #1 representative. So, I can understand why many who believe America to be a Christian nation (by virtue of Christianity being the nation's #1 religion not to mention that American was founded on the Christian faith) would expect their nation's President to be of the Christian faith in some capacity and, as such, would in some capacity lead the country along lines that walk the path of the Christian faith. But fact is, it's not his responsibility to be the "leader of the faith". It's why each President appoints his own Priest or Pastor or defers to the Pope or some other prominent religious leader of the faith for religious guidance.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Really? Please tell me how those who supported integration or interracial marriages in the 1960s were "proven wrong"?
    Wasn't one side 'proven wrong'?

    Other religions didn't take the place of Christianity in most people's lives, reason did. Thinking for ourselves when it comes to what we believe in. That is true wisdom, knowing the difference between reflecting upon your beliefs and simply believing what others tell you and trusting them to be right.
    There is no evidence that 'reason' is part of anyone's DNA. We are all influenced by our environment.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Interesting that while I call out the religious fanatics on both ends - Christians and Muslims - you prefer to overlook this fact and focus on the Islamist and ignore over the top Christians just to spur Muslim extremism even further.
    Do you feel that Christian fanatics are the same as Islamic fanatics? And how am I spurring Muslim extremism?

    Look, I don't like the so-called followers of the Muslim faith who co-op the religion
    What co-opting are you talking about?

    any more than I do those of my faith, Christianity, who come across all holier than thou yet do the same thing.
    What 'same thing' are you talking about here?
    The only difference between the two is one group will strap a bomb to their chest to get their point across, whereas, in some cases the other is very willing to take up a gun to defend their religious beliefs.
    Is that the only difference you can find? What about the treatment of women? Anything similar going on there?

    Neither are living up to scripture according to the teachings of Christ per the Gospels as far as I'm concerned. All are zealots.
    Scripture, huh? You seem to be as unfamiliar with Islam as you are with Christianity.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Exactly! And not that I've never claimed otherwise. Nonetheless, we Americans do tend to put a lot of emphasis on our nation's President being a pseudo-religious example. I mean, we (media) tends to question whether or not the President attends church, if he prays, condemn him if he doesn't invoke God when concluding a speech and yet if he doesn't demonstrate his Christian faith somehow it makes him...un-American?

    On the one hand I can understand it. The President is the Chief Executive for the country, it's #1 representative. So, I can understand why many who believe America to be a Christian nation (by virtue of Christianity being the nation's #1 religion not to mention that American was founded on the Christian faith) would expect their nation's President to be of the Christian faith in some capacity and, as such, would in some capacity lead the country along lines that walk the path of the Christian faith. But fact is, it's not his responsibility to be the "leader of the faith". It's why each President appoints his own Priest or Pastor or defers to the Pope or some other prominent religious leader of the faith for religious guidance.
    It is thought that those calling themselves Christians have values based on the teachings of Jesus Christ while those who would call themselves atheist or agnostic would have values which are less clear. Although Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama both claimed to be Christian I doubt anyone felt they were too serious about it, but their claims were enough to satisfy many voters.

  5. #195
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Wasn't one side 'proven wrong'?

    There is no evidence that 'reason' is part of anyone's DNA. We are all influenced by our environment.
    This is what the integration/interracial marriage thing is in response to:

    Every generation believes themselves to be on the cutting edge of social thought but are eventually proven wrong.
    This would mean that those who are for integration and/or for interracial marriage, being the ones on "the cutting edge of social thought" at that time, would have to be the ones "proven wrong" in order for your comment to be true. Do you believe that those people will eventually be "proven wrong" when it comes to these issues? Those who hold with the old beliefs couldn't possibly be described as "on the cutting edge of social thought".

    I didn't mention "reason" as being in our DNA, but it is almost certainly there since all humans (barring some tragic injury or condition affecting their brain functions) have the ability to reason, at least to a point. If it were only our environment that led to us having the ability to reason, then some people would never be able to use reason. Reasoning ability must be ingrained in us somewhere. We are a combination of nurture and nature.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It is thought that those calling themselves Christians have values based on the teachings of Jesus Christ while those who would call themselves atheist or agnostic would have values which are less clear. Although Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama both claimed to be Christian I doubt anyone felt they were too serious about it, but their claims were enough to satisfy many voters.
    Actually, those calling themselves Christians merely have values that are likely influenced by some teachings of the Christian religion, not necessarily Jesus Christ. Those of us who are atheist or agnostic have values that can be influenced by anything that influences Christians. Jesus didn't make up values that no one had ever heard of before until he came along. Those values existed prior to him. He merely set forth a specific set of values. For the most part, most humans, no matter their religious beliefs or cultural background, share some very basic, general values, such as family, working to provide for our basic needs, helping others, etc. These are going to be the base values. More specific values may vary, but that is true even among Christians. Some Christian faiths value large, extended families, while others prefer the "nuclear" family. Some faiths value donating freely, without pressure, to the church or other charitable causes, while others demand tithes. Some faiths value procreation to the maximum extent, while others value responsible parenting. Some faiths value lifelong commitments to spouses while others value healthy relationships that should end when they are no longer working out, despite effort included. Some faiths value modesty, whereas at least one Christian church I know of believes that clothing is completely optional.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Do you feel that Christian fanatics are the same as Islamic fanatics? And how am I spurring Muslim extremism?

    .
    They certainly can be. See: Westboro Church. See the illegal offshoots of the Mormons. See the fundamentalist Christians that desire (& would support) turning the clock back and keeping women in the home, breeding and subservient. See the followers of Jim Jones and their kool-aid. See the snake handlers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is what the integration/interracial marriage thing is in response to: This would mean that those who are for integration and/or for interracial marriage, being the ones on "the cutting edge of social thought" at that time, would have to be the ones "proven wrong" in order for your comment to be true. Do you believe that those people will eventually be "proven wrong" when it comes to these issues? Those who hold with the old beliefs couldn't possibly be described as "on the cutting edge of social thought".
    Those who were for racial inequality were proven wrong and were not supporting the idea of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This is a very old idea but an example of how many can still forget it.
    I didn't mention "reason" as being in our DNA, but it is almost certainly there since all humans (barring some tragic injury or condition affecting their brain functions) have the ability to reason, at least to a point.
    It's the 'at least to a point' where the differences begin.
    If it were only our environment that led to us having the ability to reason, then some people would never be able to use reason.
    And some people never have. They can live in their immediate environment in which they were raised but once removed they can not cope on their own.
    Reasoning ability must be ingrained in us somewhere. We are a combination of nurture and nature.
    CC Lewis asked why man has a conscience, and it's an interesting question. Why do we have one and where did it come from? Did evolve just as our thumbs did? Or was it placed there by God, as Lewis suggests.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They certainly can be. See: Westboro Church. See the illegal offshoots of the Mormons. See the fundamentalist Christians that desire (& would support) turning the clock back and keeping women in the home, breeding and subservient. See the followers of Jim Jones and their kool-aid. See the snake handlers.
    How many people has the Westboro Church killed when compared with Muslim fanatics? Any idea?

    Have you done any research of how many Christians are keeping women subservient compared with Muslims? Snake handlers? I doubt that was inspired by the teachings of Jesus.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, those calling themselves Christians merely have values that are likely influenced by some teachings of the Christian religion, not necessarily Jesus Christ. Those of us who are atheist or agnostic have values that can be influenced by anything that influences Christians. Jesus didn't make up values that no one had ever heard of before until he came along. Those values existed prior to him. He merely set forth a specific set of values. For the most part, most humans, no matter their religious beliefs or cultural background, share some very basic, general values, such as family, working to provide for our basic needs, helping others, etc. These are going to be the base values. More specific values may vary, but that is true even among Christians. Some Christian faiths value large, extended families, while others prefer the "nuclear" family. Some faiths value donating freely, without pressure, to the church or other charitable causes, while others demand tithes. Some faiths value procreation to the maximum extent, while others value responsible parenting. Some faiths value lifelong commitments to spouses while others value healthy relationships that should end when they are no longer working out, despite effort included. Some faiths value modesty, whereas at least one Christian church I know of believes that clothing is completely optional.
    The customs of the Church may differ but the similarities tend to compensate for these differences. Certainly atheists can have ideals but they tend t coincide with the teaching of Jesus rather than the teachings of Mohammed, or any other religion. And of course in a Christian influenced country we can freely have this conversation, which is not so in many other parts of the world.

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