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Thread: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

  1. #131
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So you feel your philosophy would be the same as it is now if you were born in Afghanistan, North Korea, or India?

    People can call themselves Christians but you'll know better by their actions, the 'quality of their character'. Often, everywhere, a persons claim to following a religion is used for political purposes, a trait not limited to American politicians.
    First of all, I have no idea what my philosophy on life or government would be like if I lived in any other country, but that doesn't mean that it would be vastly different. There are plenty of people in those countries who wish to be like Americans, free and treated equally. There are plenty of people in those countries who do not approve of what their government or their people do, but they don't know how to change things.

    Second, you are now getting into a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. You are trying to discount others as not being Christian because you don't believe they are acting as Christians are supposed to act.

    Here is the definition of Christian:

    a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
    b (1) : disciple 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961

    Christian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    That's it. That is all that is required to be a Christian. Everything else is subjective, personal opinion.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Personally, sure, but not objectively in the case of religions.
    I don't see any impediment to judging religions objectively or personally.

    Having spent years in Kenya, I can assure you that's not true.
    Were those years spent prior to Obama becoming president? All you need do is Google to discover what many Kenyans believe.

    But, again, I have no interest in this subject. The subject of the thread is more interesting.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Who is being persecuted for religious reasons in the USA?
    The guy who made the anti Muslim video and that Rev. in Florida who wanted to bur the Koran.
    Who put the USA in charge of fighting persecution on this planet?
    Perhaps it's something we should all take an interest in.

    The USA has plenty of problems to take care of in the USA. Once all of those problems are solved we start looking at other people's problems.
    Every person and every country has problems but we can multitask as well as having different groups looking after different problems. In fact that the way it usually works.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We've had reasoning abilities since at least the first homosapien existed (likely some of those earlier human-like species also had reasoning skills, considering what we have seen in apes and what was left from those species).
    Yes, we have learned something from trial and error.
    Who are we to say that a "democracy" is the best way to govern?
    Because we are a free people who can use what intelligence we have to compare and reflect. We know that that people are not trying to escape to Cuba so we should be able to draw some rational conclusions from that.
    We know that a direct democracy is a horrible way to govern. But people come up with new ideas all the time. Why is it so hard for you to believe that people in the past came up with the idea of a democracy or a republic or even a Constitution? We don't need to be taught reason. We may need to be taught how to refine our reasoning ability, but not actually taught that reasoning ability. And, yes that includes working on past ideas.
    The Swiss have the most direct democracy and it seems to work quite well. Better than many others systems operating in other countries, certainly. Maybe there were cavemen who devised a Constitution but this is like the 1000 monkeys with typewriters theory. We can speculated about fairies on a pin but we have to go with what we know. Believing in something in which there is no real evidence is bumping into the religious area again.
    The problem is that some are viewing reasoning as a goal. It isn't. It is an innate ability in all (or at least most) of us. And those who would try to keep others from speaking their ideas come from all sorts of places and backgrounds, not just "universities". Christians, like many other religions and even some who are not religious or atheists, attempt to stifle free speech or other freedoms just as often as those who you claim are doing so because they have achieved "reason".
    Take a look around the contemporary world and look to see who is trying to stifle free speech. It is not the Christians. It tends to be Muslims, universities, the US Government, and the politically correct.
    Christianity isn't a philosophy. It is a religion.
    No, it is a philosophy. Jesus Christ established no religion.
    Philosophy is different than religion. Philosophy relies on reason and thinking to come to conclusions, whereas a certain amount of faith is necessary for something to be a religion.
    The same is true of philosophies, which is why philosophies change and philosophers come to debate. The 'Truth', has yet to be established and likely never will be.
    While philosophy might say that a god could exist, religion says that a God does exist. Philosophy might say that there could be life after death, while religion says there is life after death, in some form. Philosophy might include a discussion about religion, but the "Philosophy of Religion" is not saying that religion is a philosophy in itself, but rather looking at religion philosophically.
    I agree but it also depends a great deal on the religion. Some philosophers certainly embraced the philosophies and teachings of Jesus Christ and authors and speakers like CS Lewis (among many others) philosophized often about the existence of God. One does not necessarily negate the other. Some religions disallow any philosophizing apart from within the established religion, while Christianity does not do this. Many Christians would like to see the Christian philosophy, as in the NT taught in schools and I would be in favor of that. These teachings have effected the world in a very dramatic way and is part of our shared history, just as is the Magna Carta and the US Constitution.
    Last edited by Grant; 06-24-14 at 01:09 PM.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Some Christians try to follow the Golden Rule. As do many other non-Christians. But, like many others, many Christians seem to feel, even if it is only subconsciously, that they only have to follow it when it is something that they agree with or someone they agree with. I don't know how many times I've been told by a person claiming to be Christian that it was completely in keeping with the Golden Rule for them to tell someone that they were going to hell for being gay or not believing the way that Christian believed. Or worse, that someone was angering God or disobeying God. Claiming to speak for God as a way to condemn others or their actions is not following the Golden Rule.
    Again, some of these "Christians" give Christianity a bad name and they are forgetting the teaching of Jesus Christ. These types would be referring to the Old Testament which, as far as I'm concerned, contains mostly nonsense.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, I have no idea what my philosophy on life or government would be like if I lived in any other country, but that doesn't mean that it would be vastly different. There are plenty of people in those countries who wish to be like Americans, free and treated equally. There are plenty of people in those countries who do not approve of what their government or their people do, but they don't know how to change things.
    You woukd have as much understanding of freedom in North Korea as you do about life in other galaxies. Those living in contemporary democracies tend to take their freedom for granted, never having ever had the need to fight for it.
    Second, you are now getting into a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. You are trying to discount others as not being Christian because you don't believe they are acting as Christians are supposed to act.
    I'm saying that anyone can call themselves a Christian, and may well be working toward Christian ideals, but that doesn't necessarily make them a Christian any more than saying I'm a Buddhist would make me a Buddhist. If we are following the teaching of Christ then we are adhering to the Christian philosophy. Jesus Christ never called himself a Christian.
    Here is the definition of Christian:a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
    I'd go along with that.
    That's it. That is all that is required to be a Christian. Everything else is subjective, personal opinion.
    Exactly!

  7. #137
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Were those years spent prior to Obama becoming president?
    What sense would that make?

  8. #138
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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The guy who made the anti Muslim video
    A man who violated the terms of his parole, aren't you one of those "Personal Responsibility" conservatives? "We are a nation of laws" types?

    Or as long as he's being Anti-Muslim he can violate his parole with no problem.

    that Rev. in Florida who wanted to bur the Koran.
    How exactly was he discriminated against?

    People asked him not to do it, but he certainly could have done it anytime and still can so absolutely no discrimination there.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    What sense would that make?
    Because that would have made BHO largely unknown to you and not a subject worthy of conversation. His name therefore would seldom be mentioned and you would never have heard of these claims.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    A man who violated the terms of his parole, aren't you one of those "Personal Responsibility" conservatives? "We are a nation of laws" types?
    So you believe it was for violating his parole which caused a SWAT team to arrive at his home in the middle of the night?
    Or as long as he's being Anti-Muslim he can violate his parole with no problem.
    He can be pro or anti anything. Being on parole doesn't disallow freedom of speech.
    How exactly was he discriminated against? People asked him not to do it, but he certainly could have done it anytime and still can so absolutely no discrimination there.
    The question was persecution and you should familiarize yourself with the subject and the question before responding.

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