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Thread: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No it isn't. Many of the ideals we use came from other cultures that existed prior to Christianity, including Ancient Rome and Greece. Intelligent people added to those ideals, working to make a country that was truly for all people. But belief in Christianity did not cause those beliefs.
    That may well be and certainly ancient Greeks made great contributions to the world, but a religious doctrine wasn't among them. The poor, as has been mentioned, were treated rather shabbily and there was certainly no place in the afterlife for them.

    The biggest thing that seems to lead to the values of freedom and rights for common people is not Christianity or any other religion for that matter. It is reason, and groups of people who are being treated differently for what they believe in, or how they look, or what class they were born into, and don't like it. Once people start using reason to think through things, they come to realize that there is no reason why a single person or a small group of people should have power over other people and be treated better. Eventually, this reasoning, along with human compassion, leads to looking at the other side as well and seeing how other people should not be treated worse just due to things such as the color of their skin or their gender.
    You don't seem to understand how we gain 'reason'. Do you think we just stumbled across it without some trial and error along the way or have we in the democracies arrived at the zenith of mankind and we are the heighth of all man can possibly be? I doubt it. We have to be taught 'reason' and need free ideas and expression to arrive at some 'reason' as to what life and our attitudes toward our fellow man is all about. This has been debated since the aforementioned Greeks, and perhaps earlier.

    We can see students in Universities today who feel that their education thus far has convinced them that they have achieved this 'reason' and therefore others should not have the freedom to speak their ideas, or share their values. Is this reason? No, of course no t,and yet this effort to deter others from their right to free speech has been supported by those who teach them. This would lead us to wonder what other nonsense they've been taught.

    We are not near as advanced as we like to think we are and philosophies, Christianity among them, will teach us that we haven't traveled all that far.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    republicans claim to want to bring democray to the other parts of the world but they hate to see it in USA
    Obama would like other leaders to work together to solve their country's problems but forgets that back in DC.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    So you're fine with Obama being considered a Muslim Kenyan?
    Of course. People can consider whatever they want. He may have been a Muslim at one time, and Kenyans insist he was born in Kenya, but that is not important to me. What is important is that he's a foolish and dangerous President. Does it matter to you where he was born or what his religion is?

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Certainly we can judge that some religions are preferable to others, just as we can with any philosophies.
    Personally, sure, but not objectively in the case of religions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Kenyans insist he was born in Kenya, but that is not important to me.
    Having spent years in Kenya, I can assure you that's not true.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    a fundamental lack of understanding the first amendment.
    Well, I hope you can understand why you've confused some people (myself included) seeing as the part you quoted wasn't referring to the first amendment.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Maenad View Post
    Shame on you, confusing the issue with facts!
    i know right?
    Last edited by ludin; 06-23-14 at 11:48 PM.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Maenad View Post
    So those people who came here to escape religious persecution should have stayed at home. Groovy.



    Who is being persecuted for religious reasons in the USA?

    Who put the USA in charge of fighting persecution on this planet?

    The USA has plenty of problems to take care of in the USA. Once all of those problems are solved we start looking at other people's problems.
    Last edited by shrubnose; 06-24-14 at 01:27 AM.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    What exactly do these Republicans mean by "attacks on religious freedom"? The article doesn't specify. But religious freedom doesn't mean the culture as a whole adhering to one religion's ideas. It means the freedom to criticize them, and for each person to choose their own values. It sounds like they're only calling on the president to defend their religion's freedom, and not any others'.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    I see your problem. You are focusing on the worst parts of christianity to make your argument. That doesn't work. I could point to the atheist leaders of the 20th Century and the carnage that resulted from their beliefs, but then I would be doing the same thing you are doing. Taking the extremists, trying to make them the norm, then making it fit your argument that religion is bad, bad, bad.
    No carnage has ever come about as a result of atheism. That some military dictators opposed rather than endorsed the dominant religions of their cultures was no catalyst for their violence, just as many devoutly religious tyrants weren't necessarily motivated to do so by their faith. Some were, but not all. But no one has ever been motivated by their lack of a belief. Grow up and give up this nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. The beliefs about freedom and human rights simply evolved within societies that had many Christians within them. Christianity did not cause those ideals to develop, it simply was there in the same place that that they did.
    Those beliefs mostly came about when the people of those societies stopped taking their religion so seriously. But it's a misnomer that our modern ethics only ever existed in the Enlightenment. Similar forms existed in China and India, and among some American Indian societies. That ours are drawn primarily from Enlightenment ideas is no surprise, as that is within our own culture, but other parts of the world developed similar ideas on their own. Even Enlightenment values have a long history, tracing through ancient Rome and Greece, and then through Muslim kingdoms, not European ones, before returning west for the Enlightenment. Without Islam, it's very likely that the supposedly Christian Enlightenment would never have happened. Nor would modern science. It is important not to forget crucial parts of history, just because they're not necessarily our history. It is important not to be ethnocentric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Franco was a Fascist and that overrides any feelings he made have had towards the teachings of Christ.
    That's awfully convenient, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    When the President takes the oath of office, he swears on the Bible to uphold the Constitution. He doesn't swear on the Constitution to uphold the Bible.
    John Quincy Adams and Franklin Pierce swore on a book of laws, rather than a bible. Much more appropriate, I think, since the president is to uphold our laws, not any religious myths.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If you read my posts you'd see I said Christians try to follow the Golden Rule and the examples taught by Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean we'll always be successful, but we try. I cannot debate issues which you claim I 'seem to believe'.
    Some Christians try to follow the Golden Rule. As do many other non-Christians. But, like many others, many Christians seem to feel, even if it is only subconsciously, that they only have to follow it when it is something that they agree with or someone they agree with. I don't know how many times I've been told by a person claiming to be Christian that it was completely in keeping with the Golden Rule for them to tell someone that they were going to hell for being gay or not believing the way that Christian believed. Or worse, that someone was angering God or disobeying God. Claiming to speak for God as a way to condemn others or their actions is not following the Golden Rule.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That may well be and certainly ancient Greeks made great contributions to the world, but a religious doctrine wasn't among them. The poor, as has been mentioned, were treated rather shabbily and there was certainly no place in the afterlife for them.

    You don't seem to understand how we gain 'reason'. Do you think we just stumbled across it without some trial and error along the way or have we in the democracies arrived at the zenith of mankind and we are the heighth of all man can possibly be? I doubt it. We have to be taught 'reason' and need free ideas and expression to arrive at some 'reason' as to what life and our attitudes toward our fellow man is all about. This has been debated since the aforementioned Greeks, and perhaps earlier.

    We can see students in Universities today who feel that their education thus far has convinced them that they have achieved this 'reason' and therefore others should not have the freedom to speak their ideas, or share their values. Is this reason? No, of course no t,and yet this effort to deter others from their right to free speech has been supported by those who teach them. This would lead us to wonder what other nonsense they've been taught.

    We are not near as advanced as we like to think we are and philosophies, Christianity among them, will teach us that we haven't traveled all that far.
    We've had reasoning abilities since at least the first homosapien existed (likely some of those earlier human-like species also had reasoning skills, considering what we have seen in apes and what was left from those species).

    Who are we to say that a "democracy" is the best way to govern? We know that a direct democracy is a horrible way to govern. But people come up with new ideas all the time. Why is it so hard for you to believe that people in the past came up with the idea of a democracy or a republic or even a Constitution? We don't need to be taught reason. We may need to be taught how to refine our reasoning ability, but not actually taught that reasoning ability. And, yes that includes working on past ideas.

    The problem is that some are viewing reasoning as a goal. It isn't. It is an innate ability in all (or at least most) of us. And those who would try to keep others from speaking their ideas come from all sorts of places and backgrounds, not just "universities". Christians, like many other religions and even some who are not religious or atheists, attempt to stifle free speech or other freedoms just as often as those who you claim are doing so because they have achieved "reason".

    Christianity isn't a philosophy. It is a religion. Philosophy is different than religion. Philosophy relies on reason and thinking to come to conclusions, whereas a certain amount of faith is necessary for something to be a religion. While philosophy might say that a god could exist, religion says that a God does exist. Philosophy might say that there could be life after death, while religion says there is life after death, in some form. Philosophy might include a discussion about religion, but the "Philosophy of Religion" is not saying that religion is a philosophy in itself, but rather looking at religion philosophically.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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