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IRS: So… Our Computer Crashed And Erased All Of Lois Lerner’s Emails

Middleground said:
Just showing that this is indeed not the 1st time emails "disappear" into thin air, and that government corruption was fine and dandy in 2007.
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So you admit this administration is corrupt.
 
Those damn "two rogue agents" in Cincinnati.
 
j-mac said:
So you admit this administration is corrupt.
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I'd say corruption is rampant in government. Period. Of course I'm probably jaded as ****, but nonetheless, corruption exists in every branch and in both parties.
 
Jack Fabulous said:
In other words it's still the same team sport mentality that enables the perpetrators and pisses on the masses?
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I dunno. Did it anger you that the not only 22 million emails went missing, but they didn't use official government accounts? Rah rah rah...
 
Middleground said:
I dunno. Did it anger you that the not only 22 million emails went missing, but they didn't use official government accounts? Rah rah rah...
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Pretty lame.

The only point I made was that you are excusing this administration because a prior administration did something that may or may not be similar. It's blind hackery at it's finest and that's on you, not me.
 
Jack Fabulous said:
Pretty lame.

The only point I made was that you are excusing this administration because a prior administration did something that may or may not be similar. It's blind hackery at it's finest and that's on you, not me.
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No, Jack. Blind hackery explains those who think that this instance of lost emails is a first, and only owned by those darn lefties, especially Obama.
 
Middleground said:
No, Jack. Blind hackery explains those who think that this instance of lost emails is a first, and only owned by those darn lefties, especially Obama.
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No one who is objective made the claim that it was "a first". That it may have or may not have been a first was a point brought up by those, like yourself, who are desperately trying to run cover for this administration.

Again...

Yup. The Bush Administrations certainly used this excuse, too, re. the dismissal of the 8 US Attorneys.
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Your words, you own it.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I still think that we'd be well served to get a report from a tech involved rather than the journalist's impression of a third-hand report (at least third hand).

If you think that the regular "telephone game" is bad try adding a journalist and an editor into the line.

Because, honestly the report doesn't pass the smell test.

I suspect that our info is faulty.
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Here's how the IRS said it happened.
Prior to the eruption of the IRS controversy last spring, the IRS had a policy of backing up the data on its email server (which runs Microsoft Outlook) every day. It kept a backup of the records for six months on digital tape, according to a letter sent from the IRS to Sens. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah). After six months, the IRS would reuse those tapes for newer backups. So when Congressional committees began requesting emails from the agency, its records only went back to late 2012.
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Here’s how the IRS lost emails from key witness Lois Lerner - The Washington Post

Furthermore, it also stated official copies of e-mails were required to be kept locally on people's machines. However, back in 2011, Lerner's hard drive crashed. Lerner requested at the time for the information on it to be recovered, but it could not.


So the question becomes, "Is this legitimately possible?". The answer is that it IS legitimately possible, but ridiculous all the same. Let's say, for argument's sake, they legitimately do not have the e-mail records because they re-used the tape backups and her machine really did crash. It seems incredibly asinine to me for an agency like the IRS to not keep any e-mail records longer than 6 months. As a government agency, records should be kept for several years, at least 3-5 years. Where I work we don't actually archive our e-mail, but we do that intentionally (long story). But for the IRS to not have any e-mail backups longer than 6 months should be against the law itself (I don't know if it is, but it should be).

Obviously, there will be people who think it's a cover-up no matter what. There will be others who believe it's a legitimate case of lost e-mails. But to answer your question, yes, it is legitimately possible, but it doesn't make it any less bad. It just focuses the bad elsewhere.
 
Middleground said:
Just showing that this is indeed not the 1st time emails "disappear" into thin air, and that government corruption was fine and dandy in 2007.
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Good grief, go back and read the thread, someone already pointed out the 'truth' about that situation, how it was noted and they worked to fix it. We see none of that now, do we?
 
Slyfox696 said:
Here's how the IRS said it happened.

Here’s how the IRS lost emails from key witness Lois Lerner - The Washington Post

Furthermore, it also stated official copies of e-mails were required to be kept locally on people's machines. However, back in 2011, Lerner's hard drive crashed. Lerner requested at the time for the information on it to be recovered, but it could not.


So the question becomes, "Is this legitimately possible?". The answer is that it IS legitimately possible, but ridiculous all the same. Let's say, for argument's sake, they legitimately do not have the e-mail records because they re-used the tape backups and her machine really did crash. It seems incredibly asinine to me for an agency like the IRS to not keep any e-mail records longer than 6 months. As a government agency, records should be kept for several years, at least 3-5 years. Where I work we don't actually archive our e-mail, but we do that intentionally (long story). But for the IRS to not have any e-mail backups longer than 6 months should be against the law itself (I don't know if it is, but it should be).

Obviously, there will be people who think it's a cover-up no matter what. There will be others who believe it's a legitimate case of lost e-mails. But to answer your question, yes, it is legitimately possible, but it doesn't make it any less bad. It just focuses the bad elsewhere.
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easy. Just get them from the recipient. or the NSA. think that'll happen?
 
j-mac said:
easy. Just get them from the recipient. or the NSA. think that'll happen?
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(Post assumes, for argument's sake, the IRS explanation is true)

It's not that simple. First of all, if the recipient didn't think it was important for them to keep, it would be deleted. That e-mail would be completely gone. Second of all, if the e-mails had gone to private citizens, you'd need a search warrant for every person's e-mail you wanted (which you likely wouldn't get, since the recipient would not likely be under investigation). And even that would only work if you knew to whom she e-mailed.

I have little doubt you are on the "OMG, coverup!" side. And that's fine, I don't know how I feel about it, but I certainly understand where you would be coming from. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Here's how the IRS said it happened.
Here’s how the IRS lost emails from key witness Lois Lerner - The Washington Post
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...its email server (which runs Microsoft Outlook...
​

There's the problem right there.
They should be running Exchange. ; )

reporters....


Here's another bad idea
If the mailbox got too big, email would need to be deleted or moved to a local folder on the user's computer.
​
It should be moved to a network drive which is backed up regularly, NEVER hte local machine.
Have you see what users do with their machines?
 
Slyfox696 said:
(Post assumes, for argument's sake, the IRS explanation is true)

It's not that simple. First of all, if the recipient didn't think it was important for them to keep, it would be deleted. That e-mail would be completely gone. Second of all, if the e-mails had gone to private citizens, you'd need a search warrant for every person's e-mail you wanted (which you likely wouldn't get, since the recipient would not likely be under investigation). And even that would only work if you knew to whom she e-mailed.

I have little doubt you are on the "OMG, coverup!" side. And that's fine, I don't know how I feel about it, but I certainly understand where you would be coming from. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
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The long and short of this to me is that it smells. I'm a simple guy sly. but even I know that those that received emails from Lerner concerning government business or 'funny business' if you will, have NO expectation of privacy on the matter. further, the NSA has these emails for sure. so the only reason not to turn them over is indeed a cover up.

like I said. Thank god this wasn't a second rate burglary and a secretary with a heavy foot on the erase button. There could be real trouble.
 
Slyfox696 said:
I have little doubt you are on the "OMG, coverup!" side. And that's fine, I don't know how I feel about it, but I certainly understand where you would be coming from. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as you seem to want it to be.
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The Latest on Lois Lerner’s “Lost” Emails, With a Bombshell At the End | Power Line

If this is true, it means that the IRS’s record-keeping is utterly inadequate. It has no systematic record of the decisions made and actions taken by IRS employees. Within six months, all centrally located and accessible email records–which, in today’s world, means more than 90% of the relevant documents–are gone. Records of the agency’s actions exist, after that time–if they exist at all–only on individual desktop or laptop computers, from which they cannot be accessed or reviewed in any efficient way. And forget about hard drive crashes, what happens when an employee gets a new computer, or is replaced by a new employee with his or her own computer? Are emails systematically copied from one computer to another so that the IRS will have a record of what the employee has done, assuming that the employee took the trouble to archive them in the first place? I doubt it.

My opinion of the federal government’s efficiency is not high, but I find it hard to believe that this is really how the IRS manages its records. I am not a tax lawyer, but I assume that any corporation subjected to an IRS audit, or any other kind of government investigation, that had this lousy a system of preserving records would be crucified.

That is all very interesting, but the question remains: did Lois Lerner really lose the only copies of her 2009-2011 emails in a hard drive crash? In its correspondence, the IRS tried to prove the point by attaching an email thread in which the agency’s IT professionals sadly advised Ms. Lerner that they had been unable to recover her missing files. But if you read to the end of the thread (i.e., the beginning) you see Lerner’s email of July 19, 2011, in which she laments the loss of “personal files” due to her computer’s crash, but never mentions any lost emails.
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And here is a letter from a lawyer that is involved in a lawsuit against the IRS related to this 'scandal'. She really let's them have it, sighting record keeping regulations they are in violation of:

Cleta Mitchell to the IRS: Answer this | Power Line
 
j-mac said:
like I said. Thank god this wasn't a second rate burglary and a secretary with a heavy foot on the erase button. There could be real trouble.
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RAMclr-061714-missing-IBD-COLOR-FINAL.gif.cms_.gif.jpg

;) ……..
 
Simon W. Moon said:
...its email server (which runs Microsoft Outlook...
​

There's the problem right there.
They should be running Exchange. ; )
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:lol: Yeah, I noticed that too.

If the mailbox got too big, email would need to be deleted or moved to a local folder on the user's computer.
It should be moved to a network drive which is backed up regularly, NEVER hte local machine.
Have you see what users do with their machines?
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I have to maintain/fix those machines. So, yes. Actually had one today who couldn't figure out why she wasn't getting sound out of her speakers. Apparently the button that said "Power" was too hard to comprehend. True story.
j-mac said:
I'm a simple guy sly.
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Because I'm in a great mood, I'm going to let this slide. But it wasn't easy. :wink:
but even I know that those that received emails from Lerner concerning government business or 'funny business' if you will, have NO expectation of privacy on the matter.
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But they do actually. Corresponding with the government does not mean all of your e-mails can be subject to search. Because to search e-mails from Lerner, you have to search EVERY e-mail, even those which have nothing to do with government.

further, the NSA has these emails for sure.
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But, again, you run into the same problem. And yes, I'm sure they do, but I doubt they have an easy way to provide thousands of Lois Lerner e-mails. It's well known the NSA has far more data than they can monitor.

so the only reason not to turn them over is indeed a cover up.
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No, logistics and legality play a part (again, assuming the IRS explanation is true).
Arbo said:
The Latest on Lois Lerner’s “Lost” Emails, With a Bombshell At the End | Power Line



And here is a letter from a lawyer that is involved in a lawsuit against the IRS related to this 'scandal'. She really let's them have it, sighting record keeping regulations they are in violation of:

Cleta Mitchell to the IRS: Answer this | Power Line
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What you quoted was essentially what I said in my first post.
 
I thought I heard that any email concerning government business had to not be done exclusively on government servers, but also had to have a paper document as backup record. Anything less is a felony.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Here's how the IRS said it happened.

Here’s how the IRS lost emails from key witness Lois Lerner - The Washington Post

Furthermore, it also stated official copies of e-mails were required to be kept locally on people's machines. However, back in 2011, Lerner's hard drive crashed. Lerner requested at the time for the information on it to be recovered, but it could not.


So the question becomes, "Is this legitimately possible?". The answer is that it IS legitimately possible, but ridiculous all the same. Let's say, for argument's sake, they legitimately do not have the e-mail records because they re-used the tape backups and her machine really did crash. It seems incredibly asinine to me for an agency like the IRS to not keep any e-mail records longer than 6 months. As a government agency, records should be kept for several years, at least 3-5 years. Where I work we don't actually archive our e-mail, but we do that intentionally (long story). But for the IRS to not have any e-mail backups longer than 6 months should be against the law itself (I don't know if it is, but it should be).

Obviously, there will be people who think it's a cover-up no matter what. There will be others who believe it's a legitimate case of lost e-mails. But to answer your question, yes, it is legitimately possible, but it doesn't make it any less bad. It just focuses the bad elsewhere.
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This WaPo article is not accurate. First, the writer says the email server is "Outlook", which doesn't bode well for their understanding of email servers...

Second, no, the IRS email is a domain under the Treasury Email server farm. IRS doesn't manage the email servers, Treasury does.

Third, no, Treasury doesn't recycle tapes every 60 days. Like all Federal email systems, they are mandated to keep permanent backup archives.

Fourth, NO email DR plan relies of the end user to keep their own email archive on their laptop. Lerner may have backed up here PST to her local drive but that is not in any way part of Treasury DR contingency planning.

The IRS story just isn't true.
 
Most transparent administration ever, until the main frame takes a dump.
 
My IT department could have those e-mails for them by lunch.

This is an embarrassing lie.
 
Middleground said:
I'd say corruption is rampant in government. Period. Of course I'm probably jaded as ****, but nonetheless, corruption exists in every branch and in both parties.
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So you agree its possible that the IRS illegally targeted American Citizens based on their opposition to the President.

And that the While House and other Federal agencies may be involved ?
 
Middleground said:
I dunno. Did it anger you that the not only 22 million emails went missing, but they didn't use official government accounts? Rah rah rah...
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1. In December 2009, it was announced that the e-mails were found.
2. They were actually recovered while Bush was still in office, but nobody ran the story.
3. Their loss stemmed from a failure to install a properly working electronic record keeping system.
4. That system apparently mislabeled the emails, which is why they were "lost".
5. The Administration was aware of the problem in 2003, before they were ever requested by anyone and more than 2 years before it was made public.
6. In October 2003, the Administration called technicians from Microsoft to help them find the electronic messages.

Millions of missing Bush admin. e-mails found - politics | NBC News
 
Fenton said:
So you agree its possible that the IRS illegally targeted American Citizens based on their opposition to the President.

And that the While House and other Federal agencies may be involved ?
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when the IG who investigated the matter was asked if he found any indications of unlawful behavior, he said none were evident
which statement is in stark contrast to your unsupportable allegation of illegal activity
 
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