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Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

Public school teachers, public sector employees in general are our paid workers. Who said teaching is easy? I certainly didn't. I know that teaching isn't easy.

if you knew you wouldnt call them paid worker.


tell me how you know..
 
Ah, the standard Libertarian Utopian Fantasyland... if it isn't to your liking just go somewhere else. After all, good jobs are ripe for the picking, we just have to reach to the lowest branch and pick one.

So then there are no companies that do provide a good working environment without a unionized workforce? Bottom line, if you're good at what you do, you're an asset. If you're substandard or mediocre...well, make yourself better.

Unions have indeed gone way beyond their legitimate purpose, but I believe that nobody would like the results if they were to go away completely. The domino-effect would not be good.

Initially, there'd likely be little notice except people would see a pay bump as their union dues are no longer automatically deducted. Over time, there could very well be a reason to bring them back. The pendulum swings. Most people tend to forget but the 8 hour/day 40 hour/week work schedule wasn't brought to you by a union but by an owner of private company who saw that rested workers with good morale are more productive and produce in a higher quality.
 
Not I. I have never been a public employee (excepting military service). I disagree with the premise simply because not even government employees should be treated as second-class citizens. In America we have the right to organize. There is no "America Jr", nor should there be.

So you're fine with the military being second-class citizens, then? ;)
 
So then there are no companies that do provide a good working environment without a unionized workforce? Bottom line, if you're good at what you do, you're an asset. If you're substandard or mediocre...well, make yourself better.



Initially, there'd likely be little notice except people would see a pay bump as their union dues are no longer automatically deducted. Over time, there could very well be a reason to bring them back. The pendulum swings. Most people tend to forget but the 8 hour/day 40 hour/week work schedule wasn't brought to you by a union but by an owner of private company who saw that rested workers with good morale are more productive and produce in a higher quality.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Is there mo middle ground? I never said, nor did I imply, that there are no good companies. Of course there are. On the flip side, if you think that all companies are driven by your ideal goals you're sadly naive.
 
So you're fine with the military being second-class citizens, then? ;)
I know you're poking fun, and that's cool, but to give a serious answer... as much as I am fine with public sector unions, I would not be willing to extend that to the military.

Is that inconsistent or hypocritical? Meh, maybe... probably.
 
I know you're poking fun, and that's cool, but to give a serious answer... as much as I am fine with public sector unions, I would not be willing to extend that to the military.

Is that inconsistent or hypocritical? Meh, maybe... probably.

Made ya' think. Glad of that.
 
Unions for teachers are needed, what keep hearing int he news is unions doing their jobs. The unions are there to protect teachers no matter what. If a teacher is wrongfully fired or suspended like that teacher who showed a video with blackface to a history class, the union's job is to protect that teacher. More often than not though you hear about the teacher's who did something wrong and the union is protecting them, the union is demonized for just doing their job. The unions are doing their job, I am not saying that the system is perfect and doesn't need reform but you can't demonize the union for doing what it is suppose to do.
 
Good. I think unions could be good, but more often than not they are more destructive.

Same could be said of government, you advocating anarchy?
 
Unions for teachers are needed, what keep hearing int he news is unions doing their jobs. The unions are there to protect teachers no matter what. If a teacher is wrongfully fired or suspended like that teacher who showed a video with blackface to a history class, the union's job is to protect that teacher. More often than not though you hear about the teacher's who did something wrong and the union is protecting them, the union is demonized for just doing their job. The unions are doing their job, I am not saying that the system is perfect and doesn't need reform but you can't demonize the union for doing what it is suppose to do.

Yes, we can. Who says it's the union's responsibility to try to save the job of a jerk? Who says that?? When a teacher's union decides to defend a teacher who has been accused of sexual abuse, it's made a morally repugnant choice. When it decides to defend a teacher who slaps a student? It's made a morally repugnant choice.

You think this makes sense?

He worked just one year as a full-time teacher in New York. But he has collected nearly $1 million for 13 years for doing almost nothing.

Aryeh Eller, 46, a former music teacher at Hillcrest HS in Queens, is the longest-sitting “rubber room” teacher in the city. He was yanked from the classroom in 1999 and confessed to repeated sexual harassment of female students, according to a 2000 investigative report.

But a hearing officer who decides whether tenured teachers can be fired dismissed the case, ruling that Eller wasn’t told his rights. The Department of Education, considering him unfit for teaching, put him in a holding room for a decade.

One year on the job, 13 years in rubber room earns perv teacher $1M | New York Post

This is one of thousands.
 
Yes, we can. Who says it's the union's responsibility to try to save the job of a jerk? Who says that?? When a teacher's union decides to defend a teacher who has been accused of sexual abuse, it's made a morally repugnant choice. When it decides to defend a teacher who slaps a student? It's made a morally repugnant choice.

You think this makes sense?

Actually, yes what if that teacher accused of slapping a student was innocent? They did not protect the member of their union for fear of being demonized and they paid the price. What about people who are innocent, do they not have the right to protection?
 
Actually, yes what if that teacher accused of slapping a student was innocent? They did not protect the member of their union for fear of being demonized and they paid the price. What about people who are innocent, do they not have the right to protection?

So you're not commenting on the actual example I posted? Where the man admitted the allegations? Really?

One out of every 57 doctors loses their license to practice medicine. One out of every 97 lawyers loses their law license. In New York City, from 2007 to 2010, only 88 teachers lost their jobs due to poor performance -- out of some 80,000 people. That's 1 in approximately 1,000. Sound right to you? Yeah, it probably does. But it sure as hell doesn't sound right to me.
 
You got advocating anarchy from that post? Really?


Your general argument would support it. More harm than good in current incarnation, get rid of the lot. Same is true for government. Of course, what your argument glances over is that fundamentally there is a purpose and need. So instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, it is best to restrict and control Unions so that they exist and perform the necessary duties.

Duh.
 
So you're not commenting on the actual example I posted? Where the man admitted the allegations? Really?

One out of every 57 doctors loses their license to practice medicine. One out of every 97 lawyers loses their law license. In New York City, from 2007 to 2010, only 88 teachers lost their jobs due to poor performance -- out of some 80,000 people. That's 1 in approximately 1,000. Sound right to you? Yeah, it probably does. But it sure as hell doesn't sound right to me.

New York Teachers Paid To Do Nothing: 700 Of Them

NEW YORK — Hundreds of New York City public school teachers accused of offenses ranging from insubordination to sexual misconduct are being paid their full salaries to sit around all day playing Scrabble, surfing the Internet or just staring at the wall, if that's what they want to do.

Because their union contract makes it extremely difficult to fire them, the teachers have been banished by the school system to its "rubber rooms" _ off-campus office space where they wait months, even years, for their disciplinary hearings.

The 700 or so teachers can practice yoga, work on their novels, paint portraits of their colleagues _ pretty much anything but school work. They have summer vacation just like their classroom colleagues and enjoy weekends and holidays through the school year.

Yeah, we need more of this.
 
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Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Is there mo middle ground? I never said, nor did I imply, that there are no good companies. Of course there are. On the flip side, if you think that all companies are driven by your ideal goals you're sadly naive.

My position is the middle ground. The only unions I think should be illegal would be the public sector. I would never advocate making private sector unions illegal. But at the same time, their membership should never be statutorily required either, automatically docked, etc. This way, the union has to truly be about the workers as they have to earn their members.
 
Teachers don't get overtime, they're salaried, not hourly. They do get extra compensation for extra activities like coaching, clubs, etc. They deserve that.

They are salaried professionals. Schedules of salaried professionals can, and sometimes do fluctuate.

(I will admit, my posts were about unions overall and not just teachers but I will try to answer just for teachers.) The union will make sure the fluctuation is do to necessity and not due to singling teachers out. There are lots of other non-safety factor working conditions that the union can help protect.
 
Sadly, there is a belief that none of this can be done without unions. Bottom line, good managers do this without everyday. And if you work somewhere where they don't and you're a good performer, go somewhere else.

What you described is just as important for management as they want a productive work force. Unfairness is counter to producing that.

Jobs arent that easy to come by and unions can help make sure working conditions become or stay good.
 
Huge loss: teachers unions in California case - POLITICO.com

This case is a pretty big deal. Hope the movement spreads across the nation like a wild fire. Think the biggest is getting rid of statutory restrictions in firing d-bag teachers making extremely expensive and timely. The immediate dismissal of substandard teachers is a no brainer. The removal of the tenure system would help to prevent complacency in tenured teachers.

i think tenure is pretty well retarded.

i spent much of my middle through high school in cali,and then the average in that area was 30-45k a year,but considering san bernardino county area the cost of living was much lower.however even then one teacher used to gripe,because she spent alot of her own money on teaching aids and class supplies.she was my fifth grade history teacher.she would argue how pointless demanding high wages for teacher was pointless for any of them who wanted to teach,because their wages got higher,and class budgets got smaller,forcing any teacher dedicated to use their own money for the class.that ofcourse had to do alot with states constantly slashing school funds to save money,while at the same time america spends more on education than most first world countries,with less results.
 
So then there are no companies that do provide a good working environment without a unionized workforce? Bottom line, if you're good at what you do, you're an asset. If you're substandard or mediocre...well, make yourself better.

Initially, there'd likely be little notice except people would see a pay bump as their union dues are no longer automatically deducted. Over time, there could very well be a reason to bring them back. The pendulum swings. Most people tend to forget but the 8 hour/day 40 hour/week work schedule wasn't brought to you by a union but by an owner of private company who saw that rested workers with good morale are more productive and produce in a higher quality.

Please provide proof of the bolded. It was introduced by Robert Owen, not as a business owner but as a reformer; and it was the unions that got it accepted.

Eight-hour day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Origin of the 8-Hour Work Day and Why We Should Rethink It
AccuConference | Who invented the eight-hour workday?
 
Yes, we can. Who says it's the union's responsibility to try to save the job of a jerk? Who says that?? When a teacher's union decides to defend a teacher who has been accused of sexual abuse, it's made a morally repugnant choice. When it decides to defend a teacher who slaps a student? It's made a morally repugnant choice.

You think this makes sense?

One year on the job, 13 years in rubber room earns perv teacher $1M | New York Post

This is one of thousands.

Unions should look at the facts of a case too and if the person is guilty should just make sure the reprocusions match the infraction. I am not saying this is happening but what should happen. I dont think doing away with unions is the answer though.
 
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My position is the middle ground. The only unions I think should be illegal would be the public sector. I would never advocate making private sector unions illegal. But at the same time, their membership should never be statutorily required either, automatically docked, etc. This way, the union has to truly be about the workers as they have to earn their members.

Government supervisors can mistreat their employees just as much as the private sector.
 
Yes, we can. Who says it's the union's responsibility to try to save the job of a jerk? Who says that?? When a teacher's union decides to defend a teacher who has been accused of sexual abuse, it's made a morally repugnant choice. When it decides to defend a teacher who slaps a student? It's made a morally repugnant choice.

You think this makes sense?



One year on the job, 13 years in rubber room earns perv teacher $1M | New York Post

This is one of thousands.

Unions reps act as defacto lawyers when an employee is disciplined. Like real lawyers they are obligated to defend even guilty or bad employees. However, from my personal experience, they will generally not fight as hard for a bad employee as for a good one. If you don't like how discipline decisions are being made, you shouldn't blame the union. It is the school's administration, with the consent of the elected school board, that makes the ultimate decision.
 
Unions reps act as defacto lawyers when an employee is disciplined. Like real lawyers they are obligated to defend even guilty or bad employees. However, from my personal experience, they will generally not fight as hard for a bad employee as for a good one. If you don't like how discipline decisions are being made, you shouldn't blame the union. It is the school's administration, with the consent of the elected school board, that makes the ultimate decision.

The whole reason decisions are made the way they're made is because of tenure.
 
The whole reason decisions are made the way they're made is because of tenure.

I'm pro-union, but not necessarily in favor of tenure.
 
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