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Thread: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    arrogance is such a thing
    So you're saying that teachers are not paid workers?

    Ignorance is such a thing.

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    arrogance is such a thing
    You lose. Better luck next time.

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    arrogance is such a thing
    No offense intended, but I am not getting your point at all in this thread. Ok, it would be all warm-and-fuzzy if teachers were above the fray when it came to employment, but in the real world it just isn't so, and will never be so. You said earlier that teachers shouldn't be part of the labor market. What, exactly, does that even mean?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    Huge loss: teachers unions in California case - POLITICO.com

    This case is a pretty big deal. Hope the movement spreads across the nation like a wild fire. Think the biggest is getting rid of statutory restrictions in firing d-bag teachers making extremely expensive and timely. The immediate dismissal of substandard teachers is a no brainer. The removal of the tenure system would help to prevent complacency in tenured teachers.
    I'm really torn on my feelings towards all of this personally. I support unions, I don't think tenures are a bad thing, and I feel that this country is failing our teachers. I don't believe that all teachers are doing the best they can be doing and for that reason the less than perfect teachers should be removed, however I also believe that the reasoning behind why they're "less than perfect" should analyzed first. Do they feel at a loss because their budget doesn't allow for the materials needed to provide the best for the students? Okay, that's not the teachers fault. Are they slacking because they are only teachers because they like the idea of having the summer off and don't really care if the students learn anything? Okay... then those teachers need to go. My concern with eliminating the tenure option is that it'll be too easy to just get rid of teachers who really want to do well but don't have the support they need because "being apart of a unions means you're greedy and lazy." I don't see good coming from this, personally, I see a lot of bad coming from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by azgreg View Post
    Good. I think unions could be good, but more often than not they are more destructive.
    I personally don't agree with that. I think that the mainstream media likes to make it seem as though they're more destructive than good. I know of several areas of employment that would definitely benefit from having a union back them. It has never been about getting more for less. It has always been about getting what's fair for the work you provide. There is nothing wrong or destructive about that. Unions give the American citizens a voice. Eliminating unions gives the mega-corporations a voice only. I would rather support American citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is high time that we end all public employee unions. There is no reason that a public servant should not be held accountable to actually perform their assigned job as directed in an effetive manner. Unfiortunately, it seems that "better distribution" of good teachers is the "reform" plan rather than actually dismissing the underachievers. The current system is much like the Caltholic church deciding to simply move child molesters around instead of actually firing them and reporting their activiites to authorities.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I'm not trying to tell you that you're right or wrong, but it's statements like this that are a shame to me. Unions are not about having a group support your efforts to go sit at work and do absolutely nothing and get paid for it. Unions are about making sure that you are getting the adequate necessities that you need to perform your job well and be paid accordingly. I am always surprised when I see people not supporting unions. I mean if you don't support unions... fine... don't participate in them. I do think it's ill-informed and unfortunate to see people act as though unions are a negative impact on the American workers lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    Safe working conditions have been codified. So if thats their only useful purpose, they're not necessary anymore. The union pendulum has swung way past the point of reason. Any objective observer can see it.
    I'm very objective on the matter and I don't believe they have gotten to a point where we don't need them. As a matter of fact I think Americans need them more today than ever. With jobs being shipped overseas and certain lawmakers trying to make the minimum wage non-existent, plus minimum wage alone being way too low to successfully live in a comfortable fashion at 40 hours a week... Americans need unions to help support their needs over the needs of the corporations. I also know there are plenty of companies that do not maintain their safe working conditions unless the "big wigs" are coming in to check out the premise and then the managers panic and freak out on the employees to "fix all of the problems before they get there." There may be codes now for safety purposes but that doesn't mean these are all followed daily.
    ..:: Lauren ::..

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by laurcunningham View Post
    I'm very objective on the matter and I don't believe they have gotten to a point where we don't need them. As a matter of fact I think Americans need them more today than ever. With jobs being shipped overseas and certain lawmakers trying to make the minimum wage non-existent, plus minimum wage alone being way too low to successfully live in a comfortable fashion at 40 hours a week... Americans need unions to help support their needs over the needs of the corporations. I also know there are plenty of companies that do not maintain their safe working conditions unless the "big wigs" are coming in to check out the premise and then the managers panic and freak out on the employees to "fix all of the problems before they get there." There may be codes now for safety purposes but that doesn't mean these are all followed daily.
    Unions in other countries are not as contentious as unions here in the United States. In other countries, unions work with management toward a common goal -- a balance between the needs/wants of employees and the health of a company. Not so in the U.S.

    I don't have a problem with private sector unions. Worker demand is naturally limited by the profitability of a company and its ability to pay. In the public sector, there's no bottom to the well. Taxpayers are not represented by those negotiating with the workers. The negotiators are bought and paid for (in one way or another) by, generally, Democrats who use them as foot soldiers and automatic votes.

    The press does a piss-poor job of reporting on negotiations. But an excellent job of pandering to the public sector union interests. Although we're talking about public sector employees, salaries are a carefully guarded secret, as are the full cost of benefits. Public sector employees often have an artificially low starting salary to help garner public support. Increases are, again, carefully guarded secrets.

    As taxpayers, we desperately need sunshine on the process.

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    87% of healthcare workers are union. Scary, isn't it?

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by laurcunningham View Post
    I'm really torn on my feelings towards all of this personally. I support unions, I don't think tenures are a bad thing, and I feel that this country is failing our teachers. I don't believe that all teachers are doing the best they can be doing and for that reason the less than perfect teachers should be removed, however I also believe that the reasoning behind why they're "less than perfect" should analyzed first. Do they feel at a loss because their budget doesn't allow for the materials needed to provide the best for the students? Okay, that's not the teachers fault. Are they slacking because they are only teachers because they like the idea of having the summer off and don't really care if the students learn anything? Okay... then those teachers need to go. My concern with eliminating the tenure option is that it'll be too easy to just get rid of teachers who really want to do well but don't have the support they need because "being apart of a unions means you're greedy and lazy." I don't see good coming from this, personally, I see a lot of bad coming from this.



    I personally don't agree with that. I think that the mainstream media likes to make it seem as though they're more destructive than good. I know of several areas of employment that would definitely benefit from having a union back them. It has never been about getting more for less. It has always been about getting what's fair for the work you provide. There is nothing wrong or destructive about that. Unions give the American citizens a voice. Eliminating unions gives the mega-corporations a voice only. I would rather support American citizens.



    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I'm not trying to tell you that you're right or wrong, but it's statements like this that are a shame to me. Unions are not about having a group support your efforts to go sit at work and do absolutely nothing and get paid for it. Unions are about making sure that you are getting the adequate necessities that you need to perform your job well and be paid accordingly. I am always surprised when I see people not supporting unions. I mean if you don't support unions... fine... don't participate in them. I do think it's ill-informed and unfortunate to see people act as though unions are a negative impact on the American workers lives.



    I'm very objective on the matter and I don't believe they have gotten to a point where we don't need them. As a matter of fact I think Americans need them more today than ever. With jobs being shipped overseas and certain lawmakers trying to make the minimum wage non-existent, plus minimum wage alone being way too low to successfully live in a comfortable fashion at 40 hours a week... Americans need unions to help support their needs over the needs of the corporations. I also know there are plenty of companies that do not maintain their safe working conditions unless the "big wigs" are coming in to check out the premise and then the managers panic and freak out on the employees to "fix all of the problems before they get there." There may be codes now for safety purposes but that doesn't mean these are all followed daily.
    While I agree that unions can be a good thing, enhancing work place safety and comfort conditions, they are quite famous for protecting the slackers among thier membership from termination. It should not take a crimiinal conviction, or documenting a massive pile of evidence, to remove a substandard perfoming employee, regardless of how long they have been employed.

    Since all teachers in any particualr school share the same structure, materials and general student popualtion then any differences among their performance are not ikely caused by only circumstances beyond their control. The idea that pay should be based on trainiing certificates attained and years on the job, instead of actual job performance, is the hallmark of union "fairness".

    I have seen far too many gov't employees (they can no longer be called workers) that are essentially "retired on active duty" because they are "only" 5 years away from retirement and it may well take management that long to get a solid case file together in order to have them fired. Simply showing up on a regular basis does not mean that you are actually educating the students, no matter how many certificates or years on the job you may have accumulated.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by laurcunningham View Post
    I'm really torn on my feelings towards all of this personally. I support unions, I don't think tenures are a bad thing, and I feel that this country is failing our teachers. I don't believe that all teachers are doing the best they can be doing and for that reason the less than perfect teachers should be removed, however I also believe that the reasoning behind why they're "less than perfect" should analyzed first. Do they feel at a loss because their budget doesn't allow for the materials needed to provide the best for the students? Okay, that's not the teachers fault. Are they slacking because they are only teachers because they like the idea of having the summer off and don't really care if the students learn anything? Okay... then those teachers need to go. My concern with eliminating the tenure option is that it'll be too easy to just get rid of teachers who really want to do well but don't have the support they need because "being apart of a unions means you're greedy and lazy." I don't see good coming from this, personally, I see a lot of bad coming from this.
    Analysis is difficult in this topic as the likely individuals would be tenured professors who possess a ton of personal bias in the matter. And frankly, is it really necessary? Tenure can and does breed complacency. You see this is anything where an employee is either locked in to a job or is incredibly difficult to terminate. Recent example is the VA fiasco. Mind you, not to say all career teachers become complacent but if they don't, they don't have anything to worry about. The concept of first in, first out is remarkably stupid. Newer employees in anything often bring in fresh prospective and innovation. Couple that with high caliber seasoned veterans, you have a good formula.

    I'm very objective on the matter and I don't believe they have gotten to a point where we don't need them. As a matter of fact I think Americans need them more today than ever. With jobs being shipped overseas and certain lawmakers trying to make the minimum wage non-existent, plus minimum wage alone being way too low to successfully live in a comfortable fashion at 40 hours a week... Americans need unions to help support their needs over the needs of the corporations. I also know there are plenty of companies that do not maintain their safe working conditions unless the "big wigs" are coming in to check out the premise and then the managers panic and freak out on the employees to "fix all of the problems before they get there." There may be codes now for safety purposes but that doesn't mean these are all followed daily.
    Well, you have some disillusions about what unions can actually do. First, a union has no power to stop outsourcing of jobs, in fact, if they're over aggressive, they can actually make it happen at a greater scale. And again, a union is not needed for safe work conditions. OSHA standards apply to all. If an employee feels the areas is unsafe, can easily place an anonymous call to the OSHA and spur a surprise visit/inspection.

    Its a side topic but the minimum wage was never meant to be a liveable wage. Jobs that pay them aren't meant to be a career but a starting point.

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is high time that we end all public employee unions.
    I don't think they should end, just rule changes like the ones that happened with this ruling. I see no problem with collective barganing, they should have that right. What they shouldn't be able to do is have their hands tied in not being able to get rid of bad teachers. Hopefully this ruling stands any appeals.

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    Re: Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I don't think they should end, just rule changes like the ones that happened with this ruling. I see no problem with collective bargaining, they should have that right. What they shouldn't be able to do is have their hands tied in not being able to get rid of bad teachers. Hopefully this ruling stands any appeals.
    I assume that you wish to limit the terms of the union contract to pay, safety and working conditions. The problem is that unions are far smarter than the gov't morons that they "negotiate" with and are legally allowed to actively campaign for them. Unless the law is changed, as you seem to suggest, then the only recourse that the public has is to use the courts (at their own expense) to overturn the union contract terms that these gov't morons agreed to.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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