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Thread: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287:411]

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    even though it was slow enough to be imperceptible except in retrospect.




    More important..... than what?
    More important than the world changing, of course. Change is an unstoppable force. You may as well oppose continental drift or a hurricane. How you choose to live your own life in the face of that change is what defines you, not how somebody else chooses to live their own lives.

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    More important than the world changing, of course. Chance is an unstoppable force. You may as well oppose continental drift or a hurricane. How you choose to live your own life in the face of that change is what defines you, not how somebody else chooses to live their own lives.
    I'll have to remember that the next time republicans are proposing changes liberals don't like.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I'll have to remember that the next time republicans are proposing changes liberals don't like.
    That's really not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about proposals of some such law or another, but about societal change as a whole: values, mores, fashion, you know...real zeitgeist stuff. Only rarely do individuals, or even a handful of individuals change this sort of thing. And sometimes even entire populations can't stop a changing world.

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I think the advent of homosexual marriage is the beginning of the end of marriage as an important societal institution. I, too, think it won't be in my lifetime but the institution of marriage is disintegrating and being reformed as a cohabitational agreement between any two (maybe more?) people. Maybe that's how society is evolving and maybe that's what's needed but it's very strange to me.
    how's that work? is any marriage less beneficial to people then it used to be because same sex couples can get hitched?

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I'll have to remember that the next time republicans are proposing changes liberals don't like.
    So long as those 'changes' are constitutional Republicans should propose more salient legislation...They do so so rarely these days.


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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That's really not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about proposals of some such law or another, but about societal change as a whole: values, mores, fashion, you know...real zeitgeist stuff.
    In that regard, opposing change is very important. I think opposition to change is healthy and necessary for change to occur in the most positive fashion. This was the philosophical problem with Obama's campaign slogan that went right over most people's heads. Change for the sake of change is not necessarily beneficial.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    how's that work? is any marriage less beneficial to people then it used to be because same sex couples can get hitched?
    Possibly. If it is nothing more than a tax loophole for any two people, then it would be less beneficial to "the people".
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    In that regard, opposing change is very important. I think opposition to change is healthy and necessary for change to occur in the most positive fashion. This was the philosophical problem with Obama's campaign slogan that went right over most people's heads. Change for the sake of change is not necessarily beneficial.
    You mean "hope" and "change?" Those are campaign slogans, you're not actually supposed to pay attention to them. But back on topic, change isn't always positive, sometimes it's just neutral. I would put fashion in that category in a way because even though more eighties fashions have come back, I'm not legally required to wear 80's clothing myself. Now I, individually, could work to stop that change in fashion, but of course most would agree it's futile and a silly use of my energy besides, especially seeing as I'm not required to wear that clothing. It only affects me insofar as I mentally allow it to.

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Possibly. If it is nothing more than a tax loophole for any two people, then it would be less beneficial to "the people".
    but marriage was already possibly nothing more then a tax loophole wasn't it?

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    re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Marriage has been considered to be between a man and woman since it came into existence.
    That is simply not true.

    It may not affect a specific marriage, but it would be deceitful to claim expanding it to include relationships outside the traditional bounds of the institution is not changing marriage.
    Marriage has changed several times throughout history. We are still good.

    This is about changing the fundamental accepted meaning of something that has been in existence for thousands of years.
    Nope..still not true.

    Arguing that a legal document written 150 years ago actually requires a significant change in the millennia-old meaning of marriage is dishonest and rooted in partisan belief rather than sound legal theory. Changes of such a fundamental nature to such a central institution should be based on the approval of society, rather than the whims of activists in robes.
    Here is the thing. Those robes are the line of defense against the idea that the majority can create a government that oppress the minority. They are doing exactly what the founders intended.


    Many states have approved it and many countries have approved it. One can safely say that it is only a matter of time before every state approves it through the legislature or a referendum. I consider that a good thing. Hijacking the constitution for one's political agenda is not something I consider good, however.
    no one is hijacking anything.

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