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Thread: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287:411]

  1. #361
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    And you have no evidence of people naturally turning out to be alive after being dead several days.
    You have no proof he was dead. Of course people turn up alive in funeral homes (even today) and got dug up in graves after screaming DAYS after being 'declared' dead. Are you not aware of the caskets found with scratch marks inside, of those buried alive trying to escape?

    Are you aware of the custom of providing a string to a bell into caskets so that those improperly declared dead could alert people if they awakened? That's how often it happened.

    And Jesus was not 'buried.' He was prepared with oils and herbs and wrapped and placed in a crypt, a tomb. He wasnt buried.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #362
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Wow. You're stills evading. Does the possibility of God existing really terrify you so deeply that you lose all ability to reason? If there is a refutation, please cite it rather than simply asserting that it exists.
    And here you have shown your main problem, you don't even realize that there are many other beliefs out there. You are looking at things as black or white. People who believe in your version of God and atheists.

    I believe that there is a very good possibility that there is a higher power, a god. Possibly more than one. I do not believe in the Christian version of God because that god does not make any sense to me. I do not believe any higher power would be that petty to have any issue with same sex relationships or other things condemned in the Bible. Morality of the Bible sounds very much like it came from men, not God. Certainly not any higher power I care to follow/worship.

    Now, Jesus, he wasn't that bad of a man, from what I've read. However, I in no way believe he was God or the Son of God. And I don't believe he really believed that he was in the same way that Christians do either. I think he believed that he was enlightened by God to lead people to be better people, but that he was still a man, human, mortal, not God.

    I haven't evaded anything. I know that what was provided is not proof of God, and particularly not proof of the Christian God.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #363
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And here you have shown your main problem, you don't even realize that there are many other beliefs out there. You are looking at things as black or white. People who believe in your version of God and atheists.

    I believe that there is a very good possibility that there is a higher power, a god. Possibly more than one. I do not believe in the Christian version of God because that god does not make any sense to me. I do not believe any higher power would be that petty to have any issue with same sex relationships or other things condemned in the Bible. Morality of the Bible sounds very much like it came from men, not God. Certainly not any higher power I care to follow/worship.

    Now, Jesus, he wasn't that bad of a man, from what I've read. However, I in no way believe he was God or the Son of God. And I don't believe he really believed that he was in the same way that Christians do either. I think he believed that he was enlightened by God to lead people to be better people, but that he was still a man, human, mortal, not God.

    I haven't evaded anything. I know that what was provided is not proof of God, and particularly not proof of the Christian God.
    You're still evading.

  4. #364
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    You're still evading.
    Nope. You simply do not want to accept the truth, so you use this evading excuse to avoid it.

    But others have already shown how those 5 "Proofs" are wrong. Most of them use circular logic or leave out key points in order to justify what Aquinas wanted, proof of God.

    Refuting the Five Ways of Aquinas | Philippine Atheists and Agnostics Society (PATAS)Philippine Atheists and Agnostics Society (PATAS)

    Defense of Reason | Aquinas: Five Ways

    He makes assumptions that simply cannot be proven either way. Those assumptions doom the argument that there is proof of God. He attempts scientific reasoning without scientific basis because he is trying to prove his own theory, that there is a God, instead of trying to disprove it. The very premise Aquinas begins with is the major flaw in the argument, and that is that God is the only possible explanation for all the things given.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #365
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Nope. You simply do not want to accept the truth, so you use this evading excuse to avoid it.

    But others have already shown how those 5 "Proofs" are wrong. Most of them use circular logic or leave out key points in order to justify what Aquinas wanted, proof of God.

    Refuting the Five Ways of Aquinas | Philippine Atheists and Agnostics Society (PATAS)Philippine Atheists and Agnostics Society (PATAS)

    Defense of Reason | Aquinas: Five Ways

    He makes assumptions that simply cannot be proven either way. Those assumptions doom the argument that there is proof of God. He attempts scientific reasoning without scientific basis because he is trying to prove his own theory, that there is a God, instead of trying to disprove it. The very premise Aquinas begins with is the major flaw in the argument, and that is that God is the only possible explanation for all the things given.
    Now that you've actually responded a discussion can proceed.

    First I'll refer you here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1063251051

    Where I refuted several counter-arguments to the five ways. However there are a few other arguments raised in your current links so I'll address them.

    1. The objection of "what moved God" is frivolous since the point is that God isn't in motion (which refers to change). Also, no one disputes that a thing cannot be said to be in motion except with respect to another thing.

    2. Again, God is uncaused. The reason why the universe could not exist eternally is because the universe is subject to time. And if an infinite amount of time were required to go from some past point to the present, then the present would not exist, as that would require a countable infinity of whatever unit of time you use (countable infinities do not exist in reality).

    3. A necessary being is still required.

    4. God is ultimate being, and evil is privation, thus it is not necessary that God be perfectly evil.

    5. Again, God is uncreated.

  6. #366
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Now that you've actually responded a discussion can proceed.

    First I'll refer you here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1063251051

    Where I refuted several counter-arguments to the five ways. However there are a few other arguments raised in your current links so I'll address them.

    1. The objection of "what moved God" is frivolous since the point is that God isn't in motion (which refers to change). Also, no one disputes that a thing cannot be said to be in motion except with respect to another thing.

    2. Again, God is uncaused. The reason why the universe could not exist eternally is because the universe is subject to time. And if an infinite amount of time were required to go from some past point to the present, then the present would not exist, as that would require a countable infinity of whatever unit of time you use (countable infinities do not exist in reality).

    3. A necessary being is still required.

    4. God is ultimate being, and evil is privation, thus it is not necessary that God be perfectly evil.

    5. Again, God is uncreated.
    And here is the problem. This discussion was not on Aquinas Five Proofs. But you are trying to take it on a tangent I was trying to avoid because this is where it goes, basically a back and forth of "you are wrong". Just as Aquinas did, you are making assumptions that cannot be scientifically backed up. The main one being that a single God is necessary to make those things happen or for certain things to exist. It is nothing more than an assumption that leads to the major flaw in the arguments made.

    Plus, you still cannot prove in any way, even if the initial assumption is correct, that only the Christian God or a single God at all can meet those proofs. Any god or number of gods or a higher power can easily be that initial non-mover, non-evil entity.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #367
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And here is the problem. This discussion was not on Aquinas Five Proofs. But you are trying to take it on a tangent I was trying to avoid because this is where it goes, basically a back and forth of "you are wrong". Just as Aquinas did, you are making assumptions that cannot be scientifically backed up. The main one being that a single God is necessary to make those things happen or for certain things to exist. It is nothing more than an assumption that leads to the major flaw in the arguments made.

    Plus, you still cannot prove in any way, even if the initial assumption is correct, that only the Christian God or a single God at all can meet those proofs. Any god or number of gods or a higher power can easily be that initial non-mover, non-evil entity.
    First, whether or not Christianity is true is directly relevant to whether or not it should influence politics. You wish to arbitrarily exclude this aspect of the discussion because it contradicts your worldview. Yet that doesn't stop me from making my argument.

    Regarding which religion is correct, see the link I gave in #262.

  8. #368
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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    First, whether or not Christianity is true is directly relevant to whether or not it should influence politics. You wish to arbitrarily exclude this aspect of the discussion because it contradicts your worldview. Yet that doesn't stop me from making my argument.

    Regarding which religion is correct, see the link I gave previously.
    You cannot prove any religion to be correct at all. You have provided no evidence of this simply because you can't do it.

    (I have no idea which link exactly you wish me to see and I'm not going back to check it.)

    Since you cannot prove which religion is correct, then it is in no way logical to use any of them to dictate laws to others within a community, state, or country. You have failed completely to make any argument, particularly one actually related to the OP, which is about same sex marriage in Wisconsin, not you trying to prove (and failing) that the Christian God exists.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Ad hominem.
    Well let me ask you this. Is there anything we could say or show you that could change your mind? Or is your opinion of what God's word is final.

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    Re: Judge strikes down Wisconsin gay marriage ban[W:287]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You cannot prove any religion to be correct at all. You have provided no evidence of this simply because you can't do it.

    (I have no idea which link exactly you wish me to see and I'm not going back to check it.)

    Since you cannot prove which religion is correct, then it is in no way logical to use any of them to dictate laws to others within a community, state, or country. You have failed completely to make any argument, particularly one actually related to the OP, which is about same sex marriage in Wisconsin, not you trying to prove (and failing) that the Christian God exists.
    The link in post #262.

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