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Thread: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Did you not see Goering's quote?

    "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

    And if you'd look it up, you'd find that our CONGRESS - including Hillary and Kerry - were fed faulty intel...intel that the Bush admin KNEW was questionable (though they did not know for sure that it was false).
    So because of Goering's quote you feel that other European countries were not being attacked? That they were only the subjects of propaganda? It seems to me that you are a victim of Goering's very shallow point as well.

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Its a well-known phenomenon that in times of real crisis, people fall into line with the leader - partisan bickering is strongly diminished.

    Think about it this way: are Germans an intelligent, well-educated people? Generally speaking, yes. So how did Hitler fool them? Goering said it in the clearest way I can imagine:

    "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

    And he's absolutely right. Add to that the fact that we WERE attacked on 9/11...and most of us (including me) were suddenly ready to believe almost anything we were told.

    Were we told we were under attack? Check.
    Were the peacemakers denounced and accused of exposing the country to danger? Check.

    And so support for the unprovoked invasion was assured.
    He did what FDR did only he did it better than FDR. They had many programs in parallel. Both loved their national socialism.

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    If he is well enough, maybe he can be assigned the task of getting those 5 back.
    He was well enough but now it seems he is not well enough. Maybe he will get better after the next scandal surfaces and people have moved on.

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And if you'd look it up, you'd find that our CONGRESS - including Hillary and Kerry - were fed faulty intel...intel that the Bush admin KNEW was questionable (though they did not know for sure that it was false).
    Every intelligence agency in the Western world agreed with the assessment because Saddam was, as it turns out, faking a wmd program to keep the Iranian regime at bay.

    But you'll ignore that, right?

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Every intelligence agency in the Western world agreed with the assessment because Saddam was, as it turns out, faking a wmd program to keep the Iranian regime at bay.

    But you'll ignore that, right?
    Except that the WMD case was "thin", in the words of British Intelligence:

    C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

    ...

    The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.
    The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.
    The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.


    The Downing Street Memo was written in July of 2002, almost eight months before the invasion. Eight months prior, and the Brits already knew that Bush had made up his mind to invade no matter what.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Except that the WMD case was "thin", in the words of British Intelligence:

    C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

    ...

    The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.
    The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.
    The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.


    The Downing Street Memo was written in July of 2002, almost eight months before the invasion. Eight months prior, and the Brits already knew that Bush had made up his mind to invade no matter what.
    For some people, all it takes to spin a narrative is one memo. All other evidence is ignored, and one sliver of a comment made by someone one time becomes their support for a conspiracy theory. CTs often rely on a few sentences or an "eye witness", perhaps a comment by an ambassador somewhere along the way.

    But the mountain of evidence showing otherwise? Ignored.

    The Iraq War as a conspiracy is no different than "hologram planes".

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Except that the WMD case was "thin", in the words of British Intelligence:

    C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

    ...

    The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.
    The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.
    The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.


    The Downing Street Memo was written in July of 2002, almost eight months before the invasion. Eight months prior, and the Brits already knew that Bush had made up his mind to invade no matter what.
    Thats strange, because Democrats back in the 90s were all over Saddam Hussein and his efforts to build up his WMD program.

    Was the "intelligence " false back in 1998 ?

    And did Bush feed Clinton and Madeline Albright that sketchy Intelligence ?

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    For some people, all it takes to spin a narrative is one memo. All other evidence is ignored, and one sliver of a comment made by someone one time becomes their support for a conspiracy theory. CTs often rely on a few sentences or an "eye witness", perhaps a comment by an ambassador somewhere along the way.

    But the mountain of evidence showing otherwise? Ignored.

    The Iraq War as a conspiracy is no different than "hologram planes".
    Wait just one minute !!!

    Hologram planes are REAL !

    Wonder Woman had one......or was it a invisible plane ?

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Wait just one minute !!!

    Hologram planes are REAL !

    Wonder Woman had one......or was it a invisible plane ?
    It's a Truther theory.

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    Re: Bowe Bergdahl, U.S. soldier held in Afghanistan, freed in swap

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Dude. Do you not have a life away from the computer? I don't know - maybe you do, maybe you don't. I do...and I make no crude assumptions about other people.

    You should learn to refrain from making assumptions about people - that's how prejudice takes hold.

    Now, as to your claim that he renounced his citizenship. It took about ten minutes of scrolling through each and every page and I found it back in comment #327 (IIRC)...where it referenced this article. You saw the parts where he apparently left a note...but did you read ALL of the article?

    Apparently not, because the article also said this:

    The New York Times was also told by officials that the soldier left behind a note spelling out his disenchantment and his desire to walk away to start a new life.
    But there are conflicting reports as other US army officials who have read the original classified 2010 investigation report into his case said the document did not refer to a note.


    Do you believe in the AMERICAN judicial tradition of "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law"? Do you? Do you really? Because you have shown that you were ABSOLUTELY SURE that he had renounced his citizenship...but now, using the SAME article you used as 'proof', we can see that there may very well be reasonable doubt.

    Bergdahl obviously wasn't liked by his unit for whatever reason. Was that alleged - ALLEGED - note written by Bergdahl himself? Or was it placed there by people in his unit who were ticked off at him? We don't know. YOU don't know.

    And the most pertinent paragraph of all in that entire article you referenced is this one:

    “There have been several looks into the circumstances surrounding his disappearance but we’ve never publicly said anything, primarily because we haven’t had a chance to speak to Sgt Bergdahl himself,” Col Warren said.

    "Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law." There's a reason for that judicial tradition, and that Army colonel just gave another example of upholding that tradition. Bergdahl might be as guilty as sin and if so, he will richly deserve what's coming to him. But - according to AMERICAN judicial tradition, he is at this moment INNOCENT and will remain INNOCENT until proven guilty in a court of law.

    So...NO, you did not 'prove' that Bergdahl renounced his citizenship. All you did was go on your assumptions.
    Yes, conflicting reports coming from "officials" that's senior leadership....responsible to Obama. Do you understand the military officer/President relationship? I'll take the word of his fellow soldiers over the brass and wh any day.

    Didn't you say you were in the military?

    BTW, what do you expect Berghdal to say? Something like..."No, I didn't desert. I was looking for a 7/11 without my weapon...in one of the most dangerous spots in Afghanistan..."

    Gimme a break, bro. At some point you have to move beyond partisanship...like when it gets this stupid.
    Last edited by mac; 06-10-14 at 09:52 PM.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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