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Thread: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

  1. #61
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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    Not sure if you realize this but we have built roads, schools and hospitals over there. Lots of them. As well as irrigation projects, wells and district centers.
    Arguing from a position of ignorance is not helpful.

    With that said I do feel that the time to pull out was as soon as we said we were going to leave. The moment you tell the enemy you are quitting is the time to leave. Not years later.
    It's not. We have had limited humanitarian efforts in some of the countries. But our major form of interventionism is military, and we've done far more damage than good.

    Arguing from a position of propaganda and hyperbole is not helpful.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    we can only build up much infrastructure in Afghanistan..think we've done all we can -yes. spent untold billions

    there has to be a negotiated power sharing with the Taliban, they are too large and powerful to exclude a role in Afgh,

    Problem is they don't WANT to negotiate with ANA they want sole power like before we came in. Up to them to work it out. we can't do it for them
    It's true, we cannot. We cannot have a helpful impact in the region if they People of the region do not want our help or do not see our path as the one they wish to take for themselves and their government. We've spent untold trillions blowing the place up and playing right into the hands of terrorist propaganda. War and military interventionism is clearly not the answer, it's been over a decade of continued interference and it has driven us no closer to a solution. Just more debt, bigger and more intrusive government, and more dead Americans.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's true, we cannot. We cannot have a helpful impact in the region if they People of the region do not want our help or do not see our path as the one they wish to take for themselves and their government. We've spent untold trillions blowing the place up and playing right into the hands of terrorist propaganda. War and military interventionism is clearly not the answer, it's been over a decade of continued interference and it has driven us no closer to a solution. Just more debt, bigger and more intrusive government, and more dead Americans.
    we can help, but not if it's a continuation of their civil war without requiring some negotiations between the sides. it's all but stalemated, they have got to find some common ground, or this just starts all over again when we leave

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    I've got 1 word for you. Japan.

    OK...2 words..."Japan" and "Germany" (the 'and' doesnt count technically).

    Granted...this hasnt been run as I think it should have (why oh why didnt they LISTEN to me...) and both administrations fumbled post war ops BADLY...but still...WW2 involved a LONG TERM goal to maintain peace. Thats what is required when you dont 'just' defeat a country at war but in fact oust an entire government. If you want to keep going back and doing the same thing...then Germany post WW1. If you want to see long term and sustainable peace, Germany post WW2.

    Again for emphasis...I do NOT think what we are doing there now is effective. BUT...if it were managed better I can absolutely see a long term presence.

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I've got 1 word for you. Japan.

    OK...2 words..."Japan" and "Germany" (the 'and' doesnt count technically).

    Granted...this hasnt been run as I think it should have (why oh why didnt they LISTEN to me...) and both administrations fumbled post war ops BADLY...but still...WW2 involved a LONG TERM goal to maintain peace. Thats what is required when you dont 'just' defeat a country at war but in fact oust an entire government. If you want to keep going back and doing the same thing...then Germany post WW1. If you want to see long term and sustainable peace, Germany post WW2.

    Again for emphasis...I do NOT think what we are doing there now is effective. BUT...if it were managed better I can absolutely see a long term presence.
    Japan and Germany are slightly different. Their people weren't divided and were squarely defeated in proper, declared war. Yes, it's easier to dominate and engineer a bit with a beaten, but united people, willing to accept the rule of the victors. But I think you can agree that it's not the case in the current ME.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Japan and Germany are slightly different. Their people weren't divided and were squarely defeated in proper, declared war. Yes, it's easier to dominate and engineer a bit with a beaten, but united people, willing to accept the rule of the victors. But I think you can agree that it's not the case in the current ME.
    Hence the comments about how badly mismanaged post war ops have been by both Bush and Obama.

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Read my sig line, you fit.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Exactly. You don't have to go so who cares right?
    That's not an argument against anything. If a person was too physically disabled to serve in the military, would that mean he has no right to a hawkish position?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is infinity war, there's no plan to ever get out of the region. We'll always have an excuse for drone bombing civilians.
    That's such a neckbeard thing to say.

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    infinity war
    Is that a real thing? No war has ever been fought with a clear timeline or definite end in sight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But we could engage in our own propaganda if we were really interested in breaking the cycle. Building roads and schools and hospitals would go a much further way to producing a more Western sympathetic Middle East than blowing up friends and family could ever do.
    We do build roads and schools and hospitals, but that can't happen unless we militarily defeat the enemy first. Building a bridge will do zilch if the Taliban are going to blow it up in a few weeks or months. And even if drone strikes have produced resentment to such an extent that it makes people join terrorist groups (which hasn't been proven), we still have the upper hand, since al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. all kill more innocents than we do.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: US to keep nearly 10k troops in Afghanistan after 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Is that a real thing? No war has ever been fought with a clear timeline or definite end in sight.
    Yet our major, declared wars have ended in under a decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    We do build roads and schools and hospitals, but that can't happen unless we militarily defeat the enemy first. Building a bridge will do zilch if the Taliban are going to blow it up in a few weeks or months. And even if drone strikes have produced resentment to such an extent that it makes people join terrorist groups (which hasn't been proven), we still have the upper hand, since al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. all kill more innocents than we do.
    We build some in some places, true....usually after we've bombed it. Seems sporting to fix what we break. But in the end, we don't do enough to break the cycle and instead play into it. The terrorists, they're not cool...but kill more innocents than we do? I mean, we've nuked two cities; not sure they are on that level. But that is neither here nor there. Our killing of the innocent there is exactly what the terrorists want because that continual violence feeds their propaganda and recruitment, which then continues the cycle. That's why this is infinity war. It's not being fought to bring about a conclusion, but rather to continue the vicious cycle.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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