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Thread: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    And people say misogyny doesn't exist anymore. Clearly it does.
    Unfortunately, it does exist and it may well be the larger part of the story than the suspect's mental issues. Although mental illness might explain part of the suspect’s inability to cope with his issues, it probably was not the root cause of his deeply-held misogynistic viewpoint. Warped viewpoints including conspiracy theories, misogyny, and sectarian hatreds are not solely the result of mental illness.

    The suspect frequented sites and forums that advocated a misogynistic perspective and his exposure to such content almost certainly nourished his growing hatred of women. Over time, hatred of women formed a core part of his self-identity. Toward that end, he lashed out against women for all of his failings, ultimately going on his murderous rampage.

    One story on the recent contributions of misogyny to such crimes can be found at: In covering Elliot Rodger, writers aren’t shy about blaming misogyny and the groups that perpetuate it

    Hopefully, in the wake of this terrible tragedy, the spotlight will be placed on the misogynist groups that, at a minimum, create a twisted narrative of women as a means of evading the actual or perceived problems their members face.

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The Mental health center that he was being treated at knew of the videos, and that Rodger's was not taking his proscribed medication. Are you telling me that a Psychiatrist within that facility can't get a writ to detain, or evaluate? Nonsense...It is done all the time.
    Ummm that is more along the line of what I have been trying to say, this shouldn't be laid in the laps of a pair of Deputies. Elliot's parents and doctors had almost a year to 'do something' about the young man. However his very privileged parents seemed too busy to be THAT involved, they seemed to either hope for the best or it would all be handled by someone else.

    No clue why the doctors didn't do something, perhaps the boy's rich parents had something to do with that, who knows.

    Now something that is going to set the 2nd A hardliners to howling is this- if the state had a handgun purchase registration the Sheriff's department would have known the young man had multiple handguns AND was making violent threats. (ups the threat level a tad wouldn't you say?)

    Afterall it appears parents and healthcare professionals are reluctant to act in mental health issues until too late- the parents and one therapist reached out after 10PM the nite of the rampage, by then too late. The first 2 contacts by police were not connected to any mental health warnings, the 3rd was vague at best.

    Perhaps the mental health threshold should be lowered- it appears the young man could/should have been committed at least until he stabilized on his meds but that didn't happen... did the wealthy father have something to do with that? So perhaps a list of mental issues should be the threshold, not if the patient went into formal care. Perhaps a patient going off their meds should trigger the law enforcement intervention in certain mental health issues if certified by a doctor.

    Perhaps instead of commitment being the disqualifier for firearm ownership, diagnosis of a list of issues should be the ban on purchase.

    I know for many all of this is 'nanny' state or thought police, maybe a helping of dictatorship thrown in....

    But as the system works now it doesn't work very well, and too many look to law enforcement patrol Officers to do the diagnosis, and make the hard choice of hauling a citizen, who has committed no crime, into custody.

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Ummm that is more along the line of what I have been trying to say, this shouldn't be laid in the laps of a pair of Deputies. Elliot's parents and doctors had almost a year to 'do something' about the young man. However his very privileged parents seemed too busy to be THAT involved, they seemed to either hope for the best or it would all be handled by someone else.

    No clue why the doctors didn't do something, perhaps the boy's rich parents had something to do with that, who knows.

    Now something that is going to set the 2nd A hardliners to howling is this- if the state had a handgun purchase registration the Sheriff's department would have known the young man had multiple handguns AND was making violent threats. (ups the threat level a tad wouldn't you say?)

    Afterall it appears parents and healthcare professionals are reluctant to act in mental health issues until too late- the parents and one therapist reached out after 10PM the nite of the rampage, by then too late. The first 2 contacts by police were not connected to any mental health warnings, the 3rd was vague at best.

    Perhaps the mental health threshold should be lowered- it appears the young man could/should have been committed at least until he stabilized on his meds but that didn't happen... did the wealthy father have something to do with that? So perhaps a list of mental issues should be the threshold, not if the patient went into formal care. Perhaps a patient going off their meds should trigger the law enforcement intervention in certain mental health issues if certified by a doctor.

    Perhaps instead of commitment being the disqualifier for firearm ownership, diagnosis of a list of issues should be the ban on purchase.

    I know for many all of this is 'nanny' state or thought police, maybe a helping of dictatorship thrown in....

    But as the system works now it doesn't work very well, and too many look to law enforcement patrol Officers to do the diagnosis, and make the hard choice of hauling a citizen, who has committed no crime, into custody.
    I have to take issue with what you are proposing here...You seem to think that California has lax gun laws....

    "The gun laws of California[3][4] are some of the most restrictive in the United States. A Handgun Safety Certificate, obtained by passing a written test, is required for handgun purchases, although there are exemptions to this requirement.[5] (This requirement was extended to long guns on January 1st, 2014.)[6] Handguns sold by dealers must be "California legal" by being listed on the state's roster of handguns certified for sale. Private sales of firearms must be done through a licensed dealer. All firearm sales are recorded by the state, and have a ten-day waiting period. Unlike most other states, California has no provision in its state constitution that explicitly guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms.[1]"

    Gun laws in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As far as the parents using any influence they have staving off action, that is debunked in the matter because it was the Mother that called police. This was an issue where IMHO, the police dropped the ball.
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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Would not have stopped the prick.
    If done properly yes, it could have. Police see he has guns, they see video's where he claims he wants to kill people. He get's put away for a weekend for an evaluation. Hopefully good people who see through his 'charm' observe and talk to him and determine he is a real threat.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I have to take issue with what you are proposing here...You seem to think that California has lax gun laws.... As far as the parents using any influence they have staving off action, that is debunked in the matter because it was the Mother that called police. This was an issue where IMHO, the police dropped the ball.
    I have flown into Sac airport repeatedly to shoot at the Sac range... I know a bit about Cali and their gun laws....

    What is lacking is a universal flag when a cop runs someone their firearm information comes up along with any mental health issues... that would be good to know even on a 'routine' traffic stop. Wants and warrants are important but so too are firearms and mental health flags. A law requiring a therapist to report certain diagnosis, even as an outpatient- and failure to obey doctor's orders would have helped the Deputies when they went to talk to Elliot prior to the fateful night.

    When it comes to the parents I did say big deal Daddy not wanting to be too put out of his high rolling career by a spoiled brat son. The parents were divorced.

    Now mommy was soooo concerned she made ONE call, and not to the police but to the therapist prior to that fateful night. Her only direct contact with Law Enforcement was another phone call after 10 pm the night of the shooting... her son had started shooting around 9:30 pm.

    Not exactly deep concern...

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I have flown into Sac airport repeatedly to shoot at the Sac range... I know a bit about Cali and their gun laws....
    Good for you...But apparently you didn't seeing as Cali has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation...

    What is lacking is a universal flag when a cop runs someone their firearm information comes up along with any mental health issues... that would be good to know even on a 'routine' traffic stop. Wants and warrants are important but so too are firearms and mental health flags. A law requiring a therapist to report certain diagnosis, even as an outpatient- and failure to obey doctor's orders would have helped the Deputies when they went to talk to Elliot prior to the fateful night.
    How's about we don't let people with mental issues fall through, and remain untreated?

    When it comes to the parents I did say big deal Daddy not wanting to be too put out of his high rolling career by a spoiled brat son. The parents were divorced.
    How do you know what the parents were going through? As a father of a child that in her younger years needed some help with disorders, it is hair pullingly insane the hoops parents have to jump through to get their child help.

    Now mommy was soooo concerned she made ONE call, and not to the police but to the therapist prior to that fateful night. Her only direct contact with Law Enforcement was another phone call after 10 pm the night of the shooting... her son had started shooting around 9:30 pm.

    Not exactly deep concern...
    Who are you to judge..? Have you ever dealt with the Mental Health community? I think this is another case of you just making assumptions on things you know little about.
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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Unfortunately, it does exist and it may well be the larger part of the story than the suspect's mental issues. Although mental illness might explain part of the suspect’s inability to cope with his issues, it probably was not the root cause of his deeply-held misogynistic viewpoint. Warped viewpoints including conspiracy theories, misogyny, and sectarian hatreds are not solely the result of mental illness.

    The suspect frequented sites and forums that advocated a misogynistic perspective and his exposure to such content almost certainly nourished his growing hatred of women. Over time, hatred of women formed a core part of his self-identity. Toward that end, he lashed out against women for all of his failings, ultimately going on his murderous rampage.

    One story on the recent contributions of misogyny to such crimes can be found at: In covering Elliot Rodger, writers aren’t shy about blaming misogyny and the groups that perpetuate it

    Hopefully, in the wake of this terrible tragedy, the spotlight will be placed on the misogynist groups that, at a minimum, create a twisted narrative of women as a means of evading the actual or perceived problems their members face.
    Similar possibly to the guy who went into the women's aerobics class and shot them up. Or the (absolute cowardly POS) that went in and killed 5 little Amish school girls. These were older men than 22 but apparently harbored a ton of resentment and hatred against women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #188
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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Santa Barbara County Sheriff's deputies who showed up at Rodger's doorstep to check on his mental health, however, weren't aware of any videos, the department's spokeswoman Kelly Hoover said. They concluded after their visit that the well mannered, if shy, young man posed no risk."

    .
    How on Earth are cops qualified to assess someone's mental state? If they are not in the middle of committing a crime (if then)? Someone randomly shows up at a house where nothing is happening....they arent psychiatrists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Unfortunately, it does exist and it may well be the larger part of the story than the suspect's mental issues. Although mental illness might explain part of the suspect’s inability to cope with his issues, it probably was not the root cause of his deeply-held misogynistic viewpoint. Warped viewpoints including conspiracy theories, misogyny, and sectarian hatreds are not solely the result of mental illness.

    The suspect frequented sites and forums that advocated a misogynistic perspective and his exposure to such content almost certainly nourished his growing hatred of women. Over time, hatred of women formed a core part of his self-identity. Toward that end, he lashed out against women for all of his failings, ultimately going on his murderous rampage.

    One story on the recent contributions of misogyny to such crimes can be found at: In covering Elliot Rodger, writers aren’t shy about blaming misogyny and the groups that perpetuate it

    Hopefully, in the wake of this terrible tragedy, the spotlight will be placed on the misogynist groups that, at a minimum, create a twisted narrative of women as a means of evading the actual or perceived problems their members face.

    We have a society in which men believe they are entitled to attractive women. Unfortunately, attractive women tend to choose successful men. Hence, men that do not (or have not yet...which they dont seem to realize) achieve success financially or thru other recognition tend to resent it when the women *they want* reject them. Instead of adjusting their own expectations in looks, they blame women. All women it seems.

    So the more of a loser someone is, the harder it's going to be to get those beautiful women....sad, dangerous cycle.

    It's even evident in many threads here on the forum, thinly veiled in claiming that the US was much better when women only had traditional roles (comes up in lots of issues).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #190
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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Good for you...But apparently you didn't seeing as Cali has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation... How's about we don't let people with mental issues fall through, and remain untreated? How do you know what the parents were going through? As a father of a child that in her younger years needed some help with disorders, it is hair pullingly insane the hoops parents have to jump through to get their child help. Who are you to judge..? Have you ever dealt with the Mental Health community? I think this is another case of you just making assumptions on things you know little about.
    California's strict firearm laws didn't prevent Elliot from purchasing 3 handguns, they have hoops but not really that strict. If you are eligible to purchase a handgun in Oklahoma you are free to buy one in California, there is no higher standard.

    Elliot didn't 'fall through', homeless guys fall through. Elliot drove his BMW through.

    The Rodgers didn't have troubles getting their MINOR child taken care of, and they certainly had the money to pay for his care. They didn't need help, they needed to commit the boy, but most likely didn't want the stigma for him or them. Daddy was a director on the movie- "The Hunger Games"

    Once Elliot turned 18 the parent lose a lot of the ability to control their son, but again a relative can work with healthcare providers and have an adult family member committed for evaluation. While the process is often referred to as the Baker Act, most states have a process to commit a family member against their will, but it isn't pleasant. I can see how the creative, sensitive, and perhaps overly conscious of status and importance could shy away from the ugly world of involuntary commitment.

    Now what I know about the mental health care system.

    My mother slowly descended into a delusional world. She heard voices, she signed gibberish. She at first thought GOD was talking to her, but a Pastor at her church told her GOD doesn't speak directly to people, so she figured it was the devil. She also decided her husband of 40 some years was trying to kill her by injecting her milk jugs with poison. She took to hiding in the bathroom, and only eating fast food she saw being made. Her husband was a wreck and refused to do anything about it. A daughter lives nearby and started working with her health care provider to Baker Act her. Hubby spilled the beans and my mother fled Florida for Oklahoma. My wife and I were out of the Country at the time on business. My mom went to live with her sister in northern Oklahoma.

    I went to talk to her when I got back, having heard from both my half sister and step father. My mom was a mess. However there was nothing I could do on my own, my aunt and her husband refused to help. But as luck would have it my mother had a living will incase of incapacitation and that would allow for a 72 hour eval. Armed with that I coordinated with the local healthcare official up there and she did a home eval that led to a 72 hour eval. My aunt and uncle were NOT pleased with me but that wasn't my concern.

    During the eval I was told she did have significant issues, when I went back up to hear the results I was informed she was going to be released, while delusional she wasn't a threat to herself or others, because of that her medical eval was now private information and only she could release it. (she didn't) So I became the last family member to hug her. She said goodbye and I replied I doubt I'll ever see you again but how about until I see you again... she just smiled and said ok.

    I never saw her again.

    Now if that wasn't enough for you, my maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather were committed for dementia and alzheimers respectively. My Grandmother, who had lost her husband years ago kept claiming a series of men were her husbands. She was caught breaking a window to climb into a guy's house, claiming they were married but she forgot her key. (My wife had told me my granny would tell the same story three different ways when we had dinner with her once a month- I never noticed) Grandpa started wandering down the road, they lived in town, in his underwear and would relieve himself in other people's flowerbeds.

    Dealing with the health care community... yeah, I know a bit about that...

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