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Thread: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by coyotedelmar View Post
    Probably getting off-topic but I've never understood the push to ban assault rifles only. Well, okay I do understand (the point of they have no real purpose in most cases) but the idea it'd fix anything. Mass shootings aren't likely going to be stopped, maybe something can be done to reduce them but probably never totally stopped. Shootings in general are a big issue and most are done by handguns, and personally I'd rather people carry assault rifles around then handguns, at least with the rifle it is going to standout (as opposed to a handgun which can be concealed easier).
    That's why it is called concealed carry.

    It is a good thing.
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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    And in that case there was also a parent that knew something was wrong with their kid and went out looking for help and was told pretty much 'there is nothing we can do'.

    And people refuse to look at our horrible mental health system.
    There are no easy solutions to this issue. Apparently, the man's family is wealthy (or at least upper, upper middle class)- so this particular case does not seem to be a matter of recesources.

    Rather, the core issue could well be the fact that it is very difficult to legally force an unwilling adult to submit to psychiatric treatment. My general understading is that one needs to have been committed before losing the ability to buy weapons. So.... you can see how the cycle worked in this case.

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    There are no easy solutions to this issue. Apparently, the man's family is wealthy (or at least upper, upper middle class)- so this particular case does not seem to be a matter of recesources.

    Rather, the core issue could well be the fact that it is very difficult to legally force an unwilling adult to submit to psychiatric treatment. My general understading is that one needs to have been committed before losing the ability to buy weapons. So.... you can see how the cycle worked in this case.
    The problem is, until we find a way to bring back our mental health system (which mean removing the stigma of mental health issues) in a manner that is transparent so any abuses can be seen and rectified, this sort of mass murder will continue. Hell, it's not even bringing such a system back to life, for first those that focus on all the other wrong issues must admit that this is the main issue, and as of now it seems most of society is in denial about that being the case.
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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    for first those that focus on all the other wrong issues must admit that this is the main issue, and as of now it seems most of society is in denial about that being the case.
    What would you recommend doing?

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    And people say misogyny doesn't exist anymore. Clearly it does.

    Mental health systems? This problem goes beyond that. Our popular media is saturated with sexual imagery, including suggestive notions of not being validated if you aren't getting laid 24/7... especially for men. Add mental health issues and an unhealthy dose of misogyny to the mix, and you have crazy people feeling entitled to use violence to get back at bitches.

    Our culture of violence as the solution also plays into this. The public has ready access to violent weaponry and unlike in the past we increasingly lack the systems (due to de-funding) that help people to maintain their human bonds and connections to one another. Isn't it obvious by now that our country's social community is rapidly degenerating? That is the main problem.... not guns, not lack of mental asylums, but lack of people who actually give two ****s about their communities and reach out to those in need. The human touch is already gone, along with TLC. The culture of rampant selfishness and individualism is at an all time high and those are the values behind the shootings. When people don't get what they want in life they kill someone. *shrug*

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    it is very difficult to legally force an unwilling adult to submit to psychiatric treatment
    As it should be. The last thing this country needs is another way for people to be incarcerated without a trial.

  7. #177
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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/24/at-least-3-dead-in-shootings-in-santa-barbar

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    The problem is, until we find a way to bring back our mental health system (which mean removing the stigma of mental health issues) in a manner that is transparent so any abuses can be seen and rectified, this sort of mass murder will continue.
    Would not have stopped the prick.

    Sad for the families and friends that lost loved ones. Gun control isn't the answer. That has caused millions of deaths, brutal regimes, and leaves the most vulnerable... vulnerable.

    When criminals know they do not have to fear someone who is armed, these sicko's will commit crimes at higher rates. More brutal rapes, murders, more B&E's... more problems, not fewer.
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    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Actually that hurdle is very high to non specialized people. The manifesto didn't come out a month before but a day before. Prior to the massacre, did Elliot ever attack anyone- to say- commit an overt act seen as danger to himself or others?

    Did the parents present any of this evidence to the police?

    Parents call the PD all the time worried about little Johnny, or little Susie shacking with little Johnny. It is easy to point to one of a hundred and say THAT one the police should have violated the Constitution and performed an illegal search. (I recall many a wag quick to 'hope' the police gets sued for huge awards for doing just that)

    History of the shooter seems a bit spotty and a parent's phone call not very compelling compared to a shy and meek son answering the door.

    Not very "compelling"? You're kidding right?

    "GOLETA, Calif. - It was Friday night when Elliot Rodger's mother got a call from her son's therapist that he had emailed a ranting manifesto about going on a deadly rampage.


    The mother went to her son's YouTube channel and found the video in which he threatens to kill people. She alerted authorities and set off frantically with her ex-husband to Santa Barbara.
    By the time they arrived, it was too late: their son had killed six people and then, authorities say, himself.

    "They're in deep, deep grief," family friend Simon Astaire said Sunday as he recounted the family's ordeal. "Their grief which is nearly unbearable to be close to is as much for the loss of their son as for the victims."



    Missed warning signs: Deputies met with suspect three times in 10 months
    It was the second time in recent months that Rodger's mother tried to intervene. In April, she had called one of her son's counselors after seeing bizarre videos he had posted on YouTube, though not the disturbing one he posted shortly before the killings, Astaire said. The counselor called a mental health service, which then called police.


    Santa Barbara County Sheriff's deputies who showed up at Rodger's doorstep to check on his mental health, however, weren't aware of any videos, the department's spokeswoman Kelly Hoover said. They concluded after their visit that the well mannered, if shy, young man posed no risk."

    snip

    "Rodger's family has disclosed their son was under the care of therapists. In his manifesto, Rodger wrote that he had been prescribed the antipsychotic Risperidone but refused to take it."

    Elliot Rodger's family tried to intervene at time of rampage - CBS News


    So we know that not only did the mom call police, but the proper authorities called, ie, a mental treatment facility. That alone should have been enough to have police take him to the hospital without allowing him to talk his way out of it...

    They (as in the mental health community that was treating this kid) knew of the video on YouTube, and they knew that he was off his medication....This is a tragic miss by the police.
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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Too much to quote-

    Involuntary evaluations have a high threshold. Neither the parents nor the treatment facility wanted to sign off on one. The manifesto was one hour before the rampage, prior to that the police apparently didn't know about the you tube rants prior to the 137 page rant.

    Bottom line- the parents and doctors had 10 months, that damn near a year here in Oklahoma, to go to a judge and get that involuntary commitment.

    Unless a cop has a court order in his hand he can't write what he didn't see, that is he can't place a normal talking and acting man into custody on second and third hand comments. (and again the rants and screams from the usual police bashers would be 'thought police' and unconstitutional search with a heaping helping of militarized out of control law enforcement... )

    Hindsight is 20/20 and debate forums are full of late to the party eagle eyed posters...

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    re: Police call deadly Santa Barbara shooting spree 'premeditated mass murder'[W220]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Too much to quote-

    Involuntary evaluations have a high threshold. Neither the parents nor the treatment facility wanted to sign off on one. The manifesto was one hour before the rampage, prior to that the police apparently didn't know about the you tube rants prior to the 137 page rant.

    Bottom line- the parents and doctors had 10 months, that damn near a year here in Oklahoma, to go to a judge and get that involuntary commitment.

    Unless a cop has a court order in his hand he can't write what he didn't see, that is he can't place a normal talking and acting man into custody on second and third hand comments. (and again the rants and screams from the usual police bashers would be 'thought police' and unconstitutional search with a heaping helping of militarized out of control law enforcement... )

    Hindsight is 20/20 and debate forums are full of late to the party eagle eyed posters...
    The Mental health center that he was being treated at knew of the videos, and that Rodger's was not taking his proscribed medication. Are you telling me that a Psychiatrist within that facility can't get a writ to detain, or evaluate? Nonsense...It is done all the time.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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