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Thread: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

  1. #281
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Property and power ? Huh ?


    I live in Texas, a State that has yet to be overrun by the activist that seek out to destroy millenia old sacred institutions.

    .
    In your posts, have you yet demonstrated the harm that SSM will do? To individuals, marriage, or society? How it will destroy a 'millenia old institution?'
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #282
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    It DID pass and how could anyone mischaracterized the core issue of Prop 8 ?

    What misinformation could have possibly forced people to either change their mind or not understand what the primary issue was ?

    Thats ridiculous.

    People knew exactly what they were voting for.

    And your not going to convince me that a vast majority of Americans have changed their opinions on Gay marriage in just 5 years.

    Especially after they've learned what type of people are pushing for the legalization of Gay marriage.

    Bullies, that hypocritically claim their rights are being violated while they seek out and attack those who disagree with their agenda.

    If anything the activist have turned people who were on the fence on the issue against their agenda.

    " If you disagree with us we'll do our best to publicly humiliate you, force you out of your proffesion and we wont stop until we're satisfied. "

    So spare me this hyperbolic rehtoric that someone's rights are being violated.
    As I said, "barely passed". And if taken even a year later, it wouldn't have passed.

    A couple of things that were said about Prop 8 that weren't true.

    Lies and False Consequences: The Movement to Pass Prop 8


    Consequence 1: Children in public schools will be taught that both traditional marriage and same-sex marriage are okay. The California Education Code already requires that health education classes instruct children about marriage. (§51890) Therefore, if the definition of marriage is changed, children will be taught that marriage is a relation between any two adults.
    Rebuttal 1: No provision of the Education Code requires any teacher to teach that same-sex marriage is "just as good" as traditional marriage. Teachers are to teach respect for marriage and committed relationships, and Proposition 8 will not change this law.
    Consequence 2: "Churches will be sued [over their tax-exempt status] if they refuse to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies in their religious buildings that are open to the public. Ask whether your pastor, priest, minister, bishop, or rabbi is ready to perform such marriages in your chapels and sanctuaries.
    Rebuttal 2: "The California Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage cannot have any federal tax consequences, and the Court so noted explicitly in its decision. The Supreme Court also noted that its ruling would not require any priest, rabbi or minister to perform gay marriages, which should be self-evident because of the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion."
    Consequence 3: Religious adoption agencies will be challenged by government agencies to give up their long-held right to place children only in homes with both a mother and a father. Catholic Charities in Boston has already closed its doors because of the legalization of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts.
    Rebuttal 3: If this situation ever faces a legal challenge in California, it will not matter whether Proposition 8 passes because California already has on its books (and has for several years) laws granting domestic partners (homosexual and heterosexual) the same civil rights as married couples....Therefore, the passage or failure of Proposition 8 will have no effect on the placement of orphans with gay couples in California.
    Consequence 4: Religions that sponsor private schools and which provide housing for married students will be required to provide housing for same-sex couples, even if it runs counter to church doctrine, or lose tax exemptions and benefits.
    Rebuttal 4: California's existing non-discrimination laws give all registered domestic partners, whether heterosexual or homosexual, the right of equal access to family housing. To date, however, no California private religious school has been forced to comply with this law. Neither the passage nor the failure of Proposition 8 will have any bearing on the law relating to family student housing in California.
    Consequence 5: Ministers who preach against same-sex marriages will be sued for hate speech and could be fined by the government. It has already happened in Canada, one of six countries that have legalized gay marriage.
    Rebuttal 5: This would never be an issue in the United States because we have far more liberal freedom of speech and religion laws than does Canada. There have been no hate speech lawsuits in Massachusetts, which has been a gay marriage state for four years.
    Consequence 6: It will cost you money. A change in the definition of marriage will bring a cascade of lawsuits. Even if courts eventually find in favor of a defender of traditional marriage (highly improbable given today's activist judges), think of the money—your money, your church contributions—that will have to be spent on legal fees.
    Rebuttal 6: In actuality, the net fiscal effect of Proposition 8 will be an influx of revenue to California because of the anticipated increase in marriage ceremonies and the related boon to the economy. The change in the definition of marriage will not bring a "cascade of lawsuits" because heterosexual and homosexual registered domestic partners already have all the rights of married couples in California.
    That stuff listed above is what was being put out about same sex marriage and how Prop 8 was supposed to stop this "horrible" stuff from happening. All fearmongering.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #283
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    That's actually interesting. I'm in favor of gay marriage because I don't really care who marries who, but 55% is lower than I thought it would be. That's only slightly over half of all Americans, hardly an overwhelming majority. I see the younger the person the higher the support, which isn't a surprise.

  4. #284
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Yep what I figured.

    Young Americans are Ok with it.

    Well they were also Ok with Obama as they equated plattitudes and talking points to Presidential qualifications.

    You see where that led us.

    So I'm not really surprised.

    Maybe their opinions should be subject to a mathematical divisor that would counter their exponential lack of Common sense and life experience ?
    The fastest growing support for same sex marriage is among older people. Young people already support it. And that isn't going to change with age. Experience and history shows us that when it comes to equal rights, people don't normally change their minds when they support equal rights because there is no reason for them to do so. They don't have those stubborn beliefs of "well this is just wrong, and so no one should be allowed to do it" ingrained into them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #285
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Then by definition those would not be "Traditional".
    Millions of straight Americans do not choose 'traditional' marriage either.

    They are allowed to get that marriage license and have whatever type of relationship they choose...even an 'open' marriage or for the convenience of benefits. They can still legally marry. They may not honor marriage at all...so why should gays, many of whom do respect and honor marriage (& God), be denied?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #286
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    In your posts, have you yet demonstrated the harm that SSM will do? To individuals, marriage, or society? How it will destroy a 'millenia old institution?'
    The same harm as selling beer on Sunday or allowing a beer commercial to actually show someone drinking a beer will cause (none at all). Many laws are passed to prevent freedom of choice for those that have no "proper morals" according to a majority of voters. I agree 100% that SSM will not ruin America, but at the same time cannot see how a few folks having "a strong personal desire" to change existing laws makes a law suddenly invalid. The basis for this judicial decision is the 14th amendment passed in 1868 - what, exactly, triggered this "we must allow SSM" other than activist judges?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #287
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    America is already ruined morally, there is no sanctity in marriage as it is now. Allowing SSM doesn't degrade it much more than it already has been

    People need to be self driven to live moral lives, not have the government dictate that. If that's what it takes then as a society we are failing.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  8. #288
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    As Justice Scalia cogently remarked in his dissent, “if [Windsor] is meant to be an equal-protection opinion, it is a confusing one.” Windsor, 133 S. Ct. at 2706 (Scalia, J., dissenting). Although Windsor did not identify the appropriate level of scrutiny, its discussion is manifestly not representative of deferential review. See id. (Scalia, J., dissenting) (observing that “the Court certainly does not apply anything that resembles [the rational-basis] framework” (emphasis omitted)). The Court did not evaluate hypothetical justifications for the law but rather focused on the harm resulting from DOMA, which is inharmonious with deferential review. See, e.g., McGowan v. State of Md., 366 U.S. 420, 425-26 (1961) (explaining that, under rational-basis scrutiny, legislatures are presumed to have acted constitutionally “despite the fact that, in practice, their laws result in some
    God I love how Scalia's dissents keep getting used against him.

    Edi:
    http://www.aclupa.org/files/8714/006...OD_OPINION.pdf
    The PA decision, for those interested. I don't expect anyone crying "activist judge" will read it, much less provide any rebuttal, but it's interesting stuff to a nerd like me.
    Last edited by Deuce; 05-21-14 at 03:02 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  9. #289
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    That's actually interesting. I'm in favor of gay marriage because I don't really care who marries who, but 55% is lower than I thought it would be. That's only slightly over half of all Americans, hardly an overwhelming majority. I see the younger the person the higher the support, which isn't a surprise.
    Why would you think it was so high? It was only two years ago that any polls (besides the most liberal) were showing majority support for same sex marriage. That is actually a really good jump in support.

    Heck, we compare that to support for interracial marriage and you see how amazing that jump truly is. When interracial marriage came up to the SCOTUS, the national polls on it showed that only around 20% of the population supported blacks and whites being allowed to marry, despite most states having already legalized it.

    Polling On Interracial Marriage Suggests Long But Inevitable Road For Same-Sex Couples | ThinkProgress

    Majority support for interracial marriage didn't happen until the 1990s, over 25 years after the Loving decision struck down all interracial marriage bans.

    Yet, with same sex marriage, just 10 years ago (or less) we were seeing support less than 40% and opposition at almost 60%. That is a change of about 20% in just about 10 years. Whereas with interracial marriage it took almost 20 years to see that shift from about 30% support to over 50% support for it.

    Same-Sex Marriage Support Reaches New High at 55%
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #290
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    Re: Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    America is already ruined morally, there is no sanctity in marriage as it is now. Allowing SSM doesn't degrade it much more than it already has been
    Great, so you have no objection then. The harm caused by same sex marriage bans is far greater than the alleged-but-never-defined harm caused by same sex marriage.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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