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Thread: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win[W:48]

  1. #101
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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Good morning Lursa,

    You are certainly welcome to your opinion. Here's mine.

    Our right to conscience makes up who were are as individuals. From our moral conscience we discern what is right and wrong. Often, but not always, this stems from religious beliefs. Most state constitutions recognize the importance of protecting a person's right to conscience as it is deeply tied to religious liberty. Some state governments have enacted conscience protection laws. In addition, federal law conditions receipt of certain federal funds on respect for conscience in particular situations. These protections reflect the high value a civil society places on religious and moral conscience. But we have to vigilantly protect them because there is an ever growing group of judges and legislators that do not respect the moral conscience of individuals resulting in this culture war we seem to be in the midst of. They seem to have this mentality that your moral conscience comes second or not at all when it comes to accommodation laws and in the end the one who is denied his moral conscience is the one that was discriminated against the most for he is not allowed to be who he is in the public square. This isn't just happening in regard to same sex marriage. The health care field is riddled with difficult moral issues including abortion, contraception, artificial reproductive technologies, euthanasia, and assisted suicide. Health care providers with moral or religious objections to participating in these and other procedures face threats to conscience. The threats can be loss of a job for refusing to participate or be sued for denying a service that is against their moral conscience. Another area where moral conscience is being attacked is social welfare. Religious organizations such as adoption agencies, nursing homes or orphanages are forced to comply with the “official” state position on controversial moral issues, the potential for infringement of religious liberty and rights of conscience is clear as more and more of these organizations can not comply with the "official" state position for it is in conflict with their moral conscience and society ends up losing dearly with the loss of their services. While you see it solely as a discrimination issue toward the one denied a service you are more than willing to force another to deny his moral conscience in order to comply with what you think is right forcing him to a point of facing costly legal bills and losing his livelihood and unable to provide for his family. When a person is forced to compromise his moral conscience he has been denied the most important part of his freedom.


    Just a couple of things...


    #1 Do you support the right of individuals to claim a "moral conscience" (whether you disagree with it or not is irrelevant) and to hide behind that to discriminate against Blacks, or Mexicans, or Jews, or Women, or the disabled (remember the Muslim cab drivers refusing to take disabled people with service dogs?)? (Personally I support the repeal of Public Accommodation laws so not "moral conscience" requirement would exist because as a private business they have rights of property and association that are usurped by PA laws.

    #2 It's a matter between the employee and the employer if an individual refuses to perform their duties.

    #3 I agree that religious organization should be able to operated based on their own principals (as long as the comply with basic heath and safety codes), that does not mean that they can expect to receive a contract from the state if they function in a discriminatory fashion. Boston Catholic Charities is one of the more famous instances. Some people assume that Catholic Charity adoption was shut down in Massachusetts, that is not correct. There are still plenty of Catholic Charities in MA that provide adoption services. The thing with Boston Catholic Charities is that they were under a $1,000,000 contract to the City to fund their services. Boston Catholic Charities was not forced to close their doors, they choose to close adoption services when they were told that if they were going to accept taxpayer funding then they could not discriminate against taxpayers.




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  2. #102
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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Good morning Lursa,

    You are certainly welcome to your opinion. Here's mine.

    Our right to conscience makes up who were are as individuals. From our moral conscience we discern what is right and wrong. Often, but not always, this stems from religious beliefs. Most state constitutions recognize the importance of protecting a person's right to conscience as it is deeply tied to religious liberty. Some state governments have enacted conscience protection laws. In addition, federal law conditions receipt of certain federal funds on respect for conscience in particular situations. These protections reflect the high value a civil society places on religious and moral conscience. But we have to vigilantly protect them because there is an ever growing group of judges and legislators that do not respect the moral conscience of individuals resulting in this culture war we seem to be in the midst of. They seem to have this mentality that your moral conscience comes second or not at all when it comes to accommodation laws and in the end the one who is denied his moral conscience is the one that was discriminated against the most for he is not allowed to be who he is in the public square. This isn't just happening in regard to same sex marriage. The health care field is riddled with difficult moral issues including abortion, contraception, artificial reproductive technologies, euthanasia, and assisted suicide. Health care providers with moral or religious objections to participating in these and other procedures face threats to conscience. The threats can be loss of a job for refusing to participate or be sued for denying a service that is against their moral conscience. Another area where moral conscience is being attacked is social welfare. Religious organizations such as adoption agencies, nursing homes or orphanages are forced to comply with the “official” state position on controversial moral issues, the potential for infringement of religious liberty and rights of conscience is clear as more and more of these organizations can not comply with the "official" state position for it is in conflict with their moral conscience and society ends up losing dearly with the loss of their services. While you see it solely as a discrimination issue toward the one denied a service you are more than willing to force another to deny his moral conscience in order to comply with what you think is right forcing him to a point of facing costly legal bills and losing his livelihood and unable to provide for his family. When a person is forced to compromise his moral conscience he has been denied the most important part of his freedom.
    I understand that but again....their 'moral' stance on their religion and moral conscience is very selective. We dont hear about small town bakers refusing to bake wedding cakes for adulterers, do we? And of course in small towns they know. Probably in neighborhoods in cities too.

    Jewish bakeries bake fantastic hot-crossed buns for Easter in NJ. Muslim and Jewish business owners serve Jews and Muslims respectively.

    It is the hypocrisy I see....not a fundamental belief. If it was all about the belief in not serving sinners, they wouldnt even be in business. But they have *chosen* to isolate gays and I dont see that as religiously based (since they dont apply that equally to fornicators, adulterers, etc)...I see it as the same BS talking out of both sides of their mouths as people who tried to justify separate counters for blacks.

    Just IMO.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It is the hypocrisy I see....





    Always a classic.



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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I understand that but again....their 'moral' stance on their religion and moral conscience is very selective. We dont hear about small town bakers refusing to bake wedding cakes for adulterers, do we? And of course in small towns they know. Probably in neighborhoods in cities too.

    Jewish bakeries bake fantastic hot-crossed buns for Easter in NJ. Muslim and Jewish business owners serve Jews and Muslims respectively.

    It is the hypocrisy I see....not a fundamental belief. If it was all about the belief in not serving sinners, they wouldnt even be in business. But they have *chosen* to isolate gays and I dont see that as religiously based (since they dont apply that equally to fornicators, adulterers, etc)...I see it as the same BS talking out of both sides of their mouths as people who tried to justify separate counters for blacks.

    Just IMO.
    When you go into a place of business such as a bakery, does the baker ask you if you are an adulterer, a fornicator, a thief, or if you covet your neighbor's house? NO. Do they ask you what faith you practice? NO. Do they ask you your ethnicity? NO. Does he ask you your sexual preference? No. As long as you are a paying customer your order is filled until the customer presents them with a specific request that violates their moral conscience. Say a customer came in and asked for a cake depicting 42 DD breasts or a woman's crotch for a bachelor party. Or maybe a cake shaped like an erected penis. Doesn't he have a right to deny his service because what is being asked of him he finds demoralizing? Shouldn't he be allowed to protect his name by not creating something that does not represent who he is? To many marriage is between a man and a woman and God. To force them to create a cake for something they find to be an abomination to God is unfair.

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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Sure, hang a prominent sign saying that's what you're doing and you're on your own. Wouldn't say much for your business prospects at that point though.
    No, I'd exercise my business freedom to just not tell people that's what I was doing.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    When you go into a place of business such as a bakery, does the baker ask you if you are an adulterer, a fornicator, a thief, or if you covet your neighbor's house? NO. Do they ask you what faith you practice? NO. Do they ask you your ethnicity? NO. Does he ask you your sexual preference? No. As long as you are a paying customer your order is filled until the customer presents them with a specific request that violates their moral conscience. Say a customer came in and asked for a cake depicting 42 DD breasts or a woman's crotch for a bachelor party. Or maybe a cake shaped like an erected penis. Doesn't he have a right to deny his service because what is being asked of him he finds demoralizing? Shouldn't he be allowed to protect his name by not creating something that does not represent who he is? To many marriage is between a man and a woman and God. To force them to create a cake for something they find to be an abomination to God is unfair.

    If a bakery doesn't create 42DD breast cakes for anyone or if they don't make penis shaped cakes for anyone - they are not in violation of the law.


    However if the bakery offers wedding cakes as part of their routine goods provided and if they feel interracial marriage is morally objectionable and refuses "full and equal" service to black people - then they are in violation of the law.

    If the bakery offers wedding cakes as part of their routine goods provided and if they feel same-sex marriage is morally objectionable and refuses "full and equal" service to homosexual people - then they are in violation of the law.

    If the bakery offers wedding cakes as part of their routine goods provided and if they feel interfaith marriage is morally objectionable and refuses "full and equal" service to people based on the couples religious duality - then they are in violation of the law.



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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    If a bakery doesn't create 42DD breast cakes for anyone or if they don't make penis shaped cakes for anyone - they are not in violation of the law.


    However if the bakery offers wedding cakes as part of their routine goods provided and if they feel interracial marriage is morally objectionable and refuses "full and equal" service to black people - then they are in violation of the law.

    If the bakery offers wedding cakes as part of their routine goods provided and if they feel same-sex marriage is morally objectionable and refuses "full and equal" service to homosexual people - then they are in violation of the law.

    If the bakery offers wedding cakes as part of their routine goods provided and if they feel interfaith marriage is morally objectionable and refuses "full and equal" service to people based on the couples religious duality - then they are in violation of the law.



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    I am well aware of what the law states. That is why legislation or possibly a Supreme Court case will bring protection to anyone who finds themselves in a position of being forced to violate their own conscience whether it be the baker, the health care provider, the attorney, the social welfare worker etc. That they will be protected without fear of the loss of their livelihood or faced with legal battles and economic ruin.

  8. #108
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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I am well aware of what the law states. That is why legislation or possibly a Supreme Court case will bring protection to anyone who finds themselves in a position of being forced to violate their own conscience whether it be the baker, the health care provider, the attorney, the social welfare worker etc. That they will be protected without fear of the loss of their livelihood or faced with legal battles and economic ruin.

    It already been to the Supreme Court, two of them as a matter of fact. The New Mexico Supreme court ruled and upheld Public Accommodation laws even though the appeal was specifically on those grounds. The case was appealed to the United States Supreme Court and they denied cert, which means the New Mexico Supreme Court's decision was the final decision on the matter.

    http://www.nmcompcomm.us/nmcases/nms...s/SC33,687.pdf


    Sorry that you feel that big government should step in even further and void their right to terminate the employment of an employee that refuses to perform the duties and responsibilities they are being paid for. That should be a decision between the employee and the employer, not a function of government.



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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    It already been to the Supreme Court, two of them as a matter of fact. The New Mexico Supreme court ruled and upheld Public Accommodation laws even though the appeal was specifically on those grounds. The case was appealed to the United States Supreme Court and they denied cert, which means the New Mexico Supreme Court's decision was the final decision on the matter.

    http://www.nmcompcomm.us/nmcases/nms...s/SC33,687.pdf

    Sorry that you feel that big government should step in even further and void their right to terminate the employment of an employee that refuses to perform the duties and responsibilities they are being paid for. That should be a decision between the employee and the employer, not a function of government.
    Sorry you find it unacceptable for a person to dare have a moral conscience and act on it and/ or be forced to violate it in order to make a living.
    Well thanks for the info on the case of the photographer. I noticed the Supremes refused to comment on why it was denied. Guess it is up to states to pass protection laws to give businesses the right to refuse to deal with customers based on religious or moral conscience objections wherever they can. And then again there is Congress.

  10. #110
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    Re: Oregon Ruling Marks 13th Straight Gay Marriage Win

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Sorry you find it unacceptable for a person to dare have a moral conscience and act on it and/ or be forced to violate it in order to make a living.
    Well that's pretty much bull****.

    If you had paid attention to my posts I have repeatedly called for the repeal of Public Accommodation laws.

    See it appears that the difference is between you and I is that you call "moral conscience" expections for gays. I call for repeal of the laws based on property rights of the owner which means that religion or "moral conscience" is irrelevant, any business owner gets to refuse any customer for whatever reason they want.



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