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Thread: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

  1. #21
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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyMoonlight View Post
    Yes, they invaded and have cause problems for centuries!
    And converted. A lot of people converted to Islam. The first few centuries after it came into existence... Islam was a pretty seductive religion from many standpoints. Victory after victory in every way they fought. The only ones who managed to hold them back was the Byzantines. The other empires and kingdoms fell the ground.

    When you have some people conquering all of arabia and north africa and all the way to india in about 300 years and claiming that God is on their side, you kinda have to scratch your head and think that maybe they're on to something and there is a god who favors them. Ofc, that was back then. Now it's pretty clear it's not.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    And converted. A lot of people converted to Islam. The first few centuries after it came into existence... Islam was a pretty seductive religion from many standpoints. Victory after victory in every way they fought. The only ones who managed to hold them back was the Byzantines. The other empires and kingdoms fell the ground.

    When you have some people conquering all of arabia and north africa and all the way to india in about 300 years and claiming that God is on their side, you kinda have to scratch your head and think that maybe they're on to something and there is a god who favors them. Ofc, that was back then. Now it's pretty clear it's not.
    Also, not having your head cut off is a pretty big selling point for converting to islam.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Also, not having your head cut off is a pretty big selling point for converting to islam.
    That's a simple explanation to counter the fact that a lot of people in the early days of the Xth century did see islam as the true religion and converted willingly.
    All of north africa and east africa that got conquered by islam converted and even adopted arabic as their main language.
    Yes, arabic wasn't always the language in north africa. They spoke latin (well, some version of latin) until they were conquered by the islamic caliphate. And before they spoke latin they spoke something else, similar to greek because they spoke whatever the phoenicians spoke which spoke a variant of greek.

    The only ethnolinguistic group that didn't change it's language was the persians (iran) who still have farsi. But that goes into the fact that they are shiite not sunni... and since farsi didn't get replaced with arabic it's why afghanistan is a predominantly farsi speaking country as opposed to Pakistan which speaks arabic mainly.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    Obama has killed a lot of muslims. What's the difference?
    don't think Obama or even bush ever wanted to fight people for being Muslim

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    That's a simple explanation to counter the fact that a lot of people in the early days of the Xth century did see islam as the true religion and converted willingly.
    All of north africa and east africa that got conquered by islam converted and even adopted arabic as their main language.
    Yes, arabic wasn't always the language in north africa. They spoke latin (well, some version of latin) until they were conquered by the islamic caliphate. And before they spoke latin they spoke something else, similar to greek because they spoke whatever the phoenicians spoke which spoke a variant of greek.

    The only ethnolinguistic group that didn't change it's language was the persians (iran) who still have farsi. But that goes into the fact that they are shiite not sunni... and since farsi didn't get replaced with arabic it's why afghanistan is a predominantly farsi speaking country as opposed to Pakistan which speaks arabic mainly.
    Simple only in the sense that its absolutely true.
    Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia of note-Islam is the majority of the article, but its not the only one...

    Islamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Spread of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Samaritans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Muslim conquests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ilkhanate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Im glad you appear to be reading, my recommendation is to keep doing so. Eventually patterns will manifest.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Simple only in the sense that its absolutely true.
    Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia of note-Islam is the majority of the article, but its not the only one...

    Islamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Spread of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Samaritans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Muslim conquests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ilkhanate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Im glad you appear to be reading, my recommendation is to keep doing so. Eventually patterns will manifest.
    yes, I am not saying that it wasn't true.
    But there are whole host of reasons why people converted. To simply say that forced conversation was the reason why is to discredit the other reasons which did consist for the majority of the conversions.

    Like all other religions, the vast majority of people adopted it because they thought it to be true. In the case of islam, winning countless wars and saying that Allah wills it makes people think that maybe allah is really there.

    It's harder to imagine today because we know better but back then, God, in whatever form he took for all religions, was waaay bigger role in the life of people than it could ever today. It's hard to imagine.

    A lot of hindus, especially the ones at the very bottom of the caste system who lived in the north and NW part of India, the slaves, exchanged their religion for islam because islam doesn't enforce the caste system sentencing you and all your descendants to a pre-ordained role in life.

    A lot of people in Byzantium asia minor and northern africa territories, Christians, after losing the holy city of Jerusalem in the mid IXth (well, they lost it, gained it back, lost it, gained it back for a century but things were pretty clear at that point) century began to wonder... maybe God is muslim. And maybe he is indeed granting them these victories. better convert because it's clear whose side God is on...

    So forced conversation was more of a tool to get the more important people into the fold or to definitively settle an issue in a disputed territory. It wasn't the dominant form of conversions. Most converted because they thought God was really with the muslims.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    yes, I am not saying that it wasn't true.
    But there are whole host of reasons why people converted. To simply say that forced conversation was the reason why is to discredit the other reasons which did consist for the majority of the conversions.

    Like all other religions, the vast majority of people adopted it because they thought it to be true. In the case of islam, winning countless wars and saying that Allah wills it makes people think that maybe allah is really there.

    It's harder to imagine today because we know better but back then, God, in whatever form he took for all religions, was waaay bigger role in the life of people than it could ever today. It's hard to imagine.

    A lot of hindus, especially the ones at the very bottom of the caste system who lived in the north and NW part of India, the slaves, exchanged their religion for islam because islam doesn't enforce the caste system sentencing you and all your descendants to a pre-ordained role in life.

    A lot of people in Byzantium asia minor and northern africa territories, Christians, after losing the holy city of Jerusalem in the mid IXth (well, they lost it, gained it back, lost it, gained it back for a century but things were pretty clear at that point) century began to wonder... maybe God is muslim. And maybe he is indeed granting them these victories. better convert because it's clear whose side God is on...

    So forced conversation was more of a tool to get the more important people into the fold or to definitively settle an issue in a disputed territory. It wasn't the dominant form of conversions. Most converted because they thought God was really with the muslims.
    Again, very nice but the context of the discussion was forced conversion, not why people in general convert. And, one important point-you said forced conversion WAS a tool, it is still very much used, and mostly by in Islam-and no-its not just regional-the variable is Islam, so no need to get PC.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Again, very nice but the context of the discussion was forced conversion, not why people in general convert. And, one important point-you said forced conversion WAS a tool, it is still very much used, and mostly by in Islam-and no-its not just regional-the variable is Islam, so no need to get PC.
    Right, but forced conversion was a tool in the sense that it was done mostly for symbolic reasons.

    You'd have some local warlord or some nobleman who would be given the choice. Convert or die. And there would be these big ceremonies in front of the masses, peasants, artisans, farmers... they'd all gather to observe their ruler adopt Islam and then they'd too would convert. So these happened a lot. But you didn't have like, your common muslim soldier going into some village and putting the sword to the neck of some farmer and telling him to convert. Or if that did happen, it wasn't really recorded as these ceremonial preceedings of various local nobles or warlords whom, once conquered or facing defeat would convert to islam in front of their people and encourage them to do the same. These are well documented accounts. I remember reading then when it was about the islamic converstion of the hordes for instance that splintered when the golden horde collapsed. They tried their luck against the caliphate, lost and facing defeat, they struck a bargain: I keep my lands but I become a follower of Allah.

    I'm not being PC, I pull no punches on the issue. But reality is reality. Forced conversions were for the most part done to attract the power of symbolism and to convert the more important people. Convert rulers, generals and especially priests.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Right, but forced conversion was a tool in the sense that it was done mostly for symbolic reasons.

    You'd have some local warlord or some nobleman who would be given the choice. Convert or die. And there would be these big ceremonies in front of the masses, peasants, artisans, farmers... they'd all gather to observe their ruler adopt Islam and then they'd too would convert. So these happened a lot. But you didn't have like, your common muslim soldier going into some village and putting the sword to the neck of some farmer and telling him to convert. Or if that did happen, it wasn't really recorded as these ceremonial preceedings of various local nobles or warlords whom, once conquered or facing defeat would convert to islam in front of their people and encourage them to do the same. These are well documented accounts. I remember reading then when it was about the islamic converstion of the hordes for instance that splintered when the golden horde collapsed. They tried their luck against the caliphate, lost and facing defeat, they struck a bargain: I keep my lands but I become a follower of Allah.

    I'm not being PC, I pull no punches on the issue. But reality is reality. Forced conversions were for the most part done to attract the power of symbolism and to convert the more important people. Convert rulers, generals and especially priests.
    Im not debating that it was done as you mention, in high profile cases. Im talking about now-where its essentially convert or be killed, right now. Similarly with women, its convert and be married now, or die. Or convert or be sold as a slave. This is happening now, and its low level, and its not recorded.

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    Re: India's Congress party concedes election defeat

    People are framing this as a big win for Hindu nationalists, and to some extent this is true. However, it is really a big win for corporations. Now they will abolish any type of government assistance programs to the vast numbers of poor people in India. Not only that, but it is likely that foreign corporations will have a freer hand to exploit cheap Indian labor and natural resources. It has been well documented how companies like Monsanto have contributed to the demise of indigenous farmers and how the use of water has become a corporate commodity in India. Expect this to accelerate under Modi. I predict a huge spike in income inequality as a result of this election. Some think Modi will bring prosperity to India. I predict Modi will bring prosperity to the very few, while the vast majority of Indians will see their misery increase as a result of this election.

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