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Pentagon pushes Manning transfer for gender treatment

MildSteel said:
Then, that's a reason not to provide them, at least not with government funds.
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Every medication has risks. As long as the patient is aware of the risks and that medication solves the issue at hand then why not?
 
Omgitsme said:
Every medication has risks. As long as the patient is aware of the risks and that medication solves the issue at hand then why not?
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If would hope that medication for psychological needs do not have a risk of cancer. I think that type of thing should be avoided, even for private use. I surely don't think public money should be used for such drugs, unless they were absolutely necessary.
 
MildSteel said:
If would hope that medication for psychological needs do not have a risk of cancer. I think that type of thing should be avoided, even for private use. I surely don't think public money should be used for such drugs, unless they were absolutely necessary.
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Its necessary for the treatment of gender dysphoria. And im not even sure how much of an increase of cancer it really is. And you should take a look at some of the possible side effects for antidepressants. Those put you at an increased risk of blood clots and stomach bleeding as well as a possible increase in the risk of suicidal behavior. As I said every medication comes with its risks so you might as well go with the one that actually fixes the problem at hand.
 
Omgitsme said:
Its necessary for the treatment of gender dysphoria. And im not even sure how much of an increase of cancer it really is. And you should take a look at some of the possible side effects for antidepressants. Those put you at an increased risk of blood clots and stomach bleeding as well as a possible increase in the risk of suicidal behavior. As I said every medication comes with its risks so you might as well go with the one that actually fixes the problem at hand.
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The thing is this, I don't think that it's a good idea for anyone to put any type of substance in their body that carries a substantial increase in the chance that they will get a disease. Me personally, I don't do it. It has been a while since I have taken any type of prescription drugs. When I get sick, I take some ginger tea, mixed with honey. So my opinion is that if we are giving people things, for whatever reason short of saving their life or keeping them from getting a disease, that substantially increase their risk of getting disease, we should not do that. That's my personal opinion. I think part of the problem with the transgender issue is the negative reactions that transgendered people face from society. That is very unfortunate, because it is indeed a mental state that they don't have a substantial amount of control over, in many instances. With that in mind, I think that what should be offered, in the case of male to female prisoners, is the option of castration. I say that because I think the discomfort they experience is due to the presence of a more or less female mind in a body that is producing testosterone. Castration might relieve some of that discomfort. That, and I think the need to be kept segregated from the general prison population, if they are in male prisons. That's my opinion. How do you feel about that?
 
MildSteel said:
The thing is this, I don't think that it's a good idea for anyone to put any type of substance in their body that carries a substantial increase in the chance that they will get a disease. Me personally, I don't do it. It has been a while since I have taken any type of prescription drugs. When I get sick, I take some ginger tea, mixed with honey. So my opinion is that if we are giving people things, for whatever reason short of saving their life or keeping them from getting a disease, that substantially increase their risk of getting disease, we should not do that. That's my personal opinion. I think part of the problem with the transgender issue is the negative reactions that transgendered people face from society. That is very unfortunate, because it is indeed a mental state that they don't have a substantial amount of control over, in many instances. With that in mind, I think that what should be offered, in the case of male to female prisoners, is the option of castration. I say that because I think the discomfort they experience is due to the presence of a more or less female mind in a body that is producing testosterone. Castration might relieve some of that discomfort. That, and I think the need to be kept segregated from the general prison population, if they are in male prisons. That's my opinion. How do you feel about that?
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I think thats a bad idea. First of all castration isnt really going to do all that much for gender dysphoria and second of all a penis is needed to create a vagina. And its all fine and dandy that you dont take medication that gives you an increased risk of a disease but some people find the effects of medications to be worth the increased chance of some other type of disease.
 
Omgitsme said:
I think thats a bad idea. First of all castration isnt really going to do all that much for gender dysphoria and second of all a penis is needed to create a vagina. And its all fine and dandy that you dont take medication that gives you an increased risk of a disease but some people find the effects of medications to be worth the increased chance of some other type of disease.
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The problem can only be thoroughly solved by giving the person a genuine body of the gender they desire. SRS attempts to do that, but it does have it's limitations. That's why people have to take hormones, even after SRS.

But that aside, I'm trying to think of things that the government could provide to people at no direct cost to them. So let me frame it like this. Would you be willing to have your money taken from you by force so that someone, that you did not know or might not even like, could have SRS?
 
MildSteel said:
The problem can only be thoroughly solved by giving the person a genuine body of the gender they desire. SRS attempts to do that, but it does have it's limitations. That's why people have to take hormones, even after SRS.

But that aside, I'm trying to think of things that the government could provide to people at no direct cost to them. So let me frame it like this. Would you be willing to have your money taken from you by force so that someone, that you did not know or might not even like, could have SRS?
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The problem can be solved with just hormones or even just living as the gender you feel. Surgery is not always necessary. And even if it is just living as the gender you feel and hormones go a long way to helping with gender dysphoria.

My money gets taken to fund things I dont like all the time. If SRS is determined to be medically necessary for an individual then I dont see why we should say no.
 
Omgitsme said:
The problem can be solved with just hormones or even just living as the gender you feel. Surgery is not always necessary. And even if it is just living as the gender you feel and hormones go a long way to helping with gender dysphoria.

My money gets taken to fund things I dont like all the time. If SRS is determined to be medically necessary for an individual then I dont see why we should say no.
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SRS is expensive and it's not a life saving surgery. Because of that, if someone wants it, they should pay for it themselves. Should we start paying for liposuction for inmates, facelifts, tummy tucks, buttock augmentation, facial reconstruction, botox, and all the rest? Not only that, but I'm not so sure what you mean by medically necessary. On the one hand you say either being on hormones OR living as the chosen gender will solve the problem. On the other hand you say it might be medically necessary.
 
MildSteel said:
SRS is expensive and it's not a life saving surgery. Because of that, if someone wants it, they should pay for it themselves. Should we start paying for liposuction for inmates, facelifts, tummy tucks, buttock augmentation, facial reconstruction, botox, and all the rest? Not only that, but I'm not so sure what you mean by medically necessary. On the one hand you say either being on hormones OR living as the chosen gender will solve the problem. On the other hand you say it might be medically necessary.
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Gender dysphoria can easily lead to suicide. So if the individual in question is still dysphoric after hormones and living as the gender they see themselves as and is showing suicidal behaviors then yeah it may be medically necessary.

Facelifts and all that are never medically necessary so its pointless to try and compare the two.

What I said is the problem CAN be solved by hormones or living as their chosen gender as in the problem is sometimes solved by hormones and living as their chosen gender but not always.
 
Omgitsme said:
Gender dysphoria can easily lead to suicide. So if the individual in question is still dysphoric after hormones and living as the gender they see themselves as and is showing suicidal behaviors then yeah it may be medically necessary.

Facelifts and all that are never medically necessary so its pointless to try and compare the two.

What I said is the problem CAN be solved by hormones or living as their chosen gender as in the problem is sometimes solved by hormones and living as their chosen gender but not always.
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I don't believe that SRS in itself specifically has been successful in ridding a person of the dysphoria to the extent that they are not dysphoric to the point of committing suicide anymore. I say that because this condition is as old as humanity. It's just that older cultures had a way of accommodating people such that they could comfortably live their lives. Can you provide cases that demonstrate that a person was so dysphoric, even after other options were exhausted, that SRS solved the problem?

Actually people get facial reconstruction done as part of their treatment for their dysphoric condition because they say it helps them to project the image of the gender that they feel more comfortable identifying with. People respond to them more naturally as a part of their target gender, thus giving them reinforcement in their self esteem related to their target gender.
 
MildSteel said:
I don't believe that SRS in itself specifically has been successful in ridding a person of the dysphoria to the extent that they are not dysphoric to the point of committing suicide anymore. I say that because this condition is as old as humanity. It's just that older cultures had a way of accommodating people such that they could comfortably live their lives. Can you provide cases that demonstrate that a person was so dysphoric, even after other options were exhausted, that SRS solved the problem?

Actually people get facial reconstruction done as part of their treatment for their dysphoric condition because they say it helps them to project the image of the gender that they feel more comfortable identifying with. People respond to them more naturally as a part of their target gender, thus giving them reinforcement in their self esteem related to their target gender.
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I dont have the links but the percentage of people who are satisfied with SRS is like 95% or something close to that.

Your right some people get FFS in order to feminize their face. Slightly different from what you were talking about before though.

Edit: Just went back and looked at another thread thats going on and found CCs (who is a psychotherapist that works with transssexuals) quote stating that 95% of transsexuals who go through SRS are psychologically symptom free. If you want I can link you to that post or try and see if he has a source on hand.
 
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Omgitsme said:
I dont have the links but the percentage of people who are satisfied with SRS is like 95% or something close to that.

Your right some people get FFS in order to feminize their face. Slightly different from what you were talking about before though.

Edit: Just went back and looked at another thread thats going on and found CCs (who is a psychotherapist that works with transssexuals) quote stating that 95% of transsexuals who go through SRS are psychologically symptom free. If you want I can link you to that post or try and see if he has a source on hand.
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What you have provided is evidence that persons who have had SRS are satisfied and/or symptom free of the negative effects of the dysphoria, not evidence that it was necessary to relieve the negative effects. Not only that, but let's suppose that is the case, although I'm not depressed, I would be very happy if the government gave me some money to expand my business, or even something as simple as replacing the alternator on my car. While we are at it, I need some plumbing repairs done on my house, they could redo my bathroom while they are at it. I'm sure I would be in a better mood as a result.
 
MildSteel said:
What you have provided is evidence that persons who have had SRS are satisfied and/or symptom free of the negative effects of the dysphoria, not evidence that it was necessary to relieve the negative effects. Not only that, but let's suppose that is the case, although I'm not depressed, I would be very happy if the government gave me some money to expand my business, or even something as simple as replacing the alternator on my car. While we are at it, I need some plumbing repairs done on my house, they could redo my bathroom while they are at it. I'm sure I would be in a better mood as a result.
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Well knowing we dont know of any other way to treat dysphoria I would say its necessary to relieve the effects of dysphoria.

The bolded examples are not treatments for a disorder like SRS is for gender dysphoria so I fail to see how that is comparable to what we are talking about.
 
Omgitsme said:
Well knowing we dont know of any other way to treat dysphoria I would say its necessary to relieve the effects of dysphoria.

The bolded examples are not treatments for a disorder like SRS is for gender dysphoria so I fail to see how that is comparable to what we are talking about.
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SRS is not the only way to treat gender dysphoria, and many transgendered persons don't get SRS at all. Not only that but the fact that this phenomenon has been around for thousands of years demonstrates it's not necessary for affected persons to have to keep them from committing suicide. What we should do for transgendered people is to make sure that they have equal rights and that they are protected from discrimination in the workplace. As far as prisoners go, IF hormones are no more dangerous or expensive that other types of drugs that we currently provide, then it's ok. We should also segregate such prisoners and treat them as if they were a member of their target gender. People in the prison system should have the opportunity to be healthy physically and mentally. However, while SRS may be helpful, it's far too expensive relative to it's usefulness in facilitating tax payer funded mental health. If that's something prisoners want, they should pay for it themselves. Not only that, but if it's something that they personally feel is so necessary to their well being, they should not do the things that get one incarcerated in the first place, work diligently and save for it.
 
MildSteel said:
SRS is not the only way to treat gender dysphoria, and many transgendered persons don't get SRS at all. Not only that but the fact that this phenomenon has been around for thousands of years demonstrates it's not necessary for affected persons to have to keep them from committing suicide. What we should do for transgendered people is to make sure that they have equal rights and that they are protected from discrimination in the workplace. As far as prisoners go, IF hormones are no more dangerous or expensive that other types of drugs that we currently provide, then it's ok. We should also segregate such prisoners and treat them as if they were a member of their target gender. People in the prison system should have the opportunity to be healthy physically and mentally. However, while SRS may be helpful, it's far too expensive relative to it's usefulness in facilitating tax payer funded mental health. If that's something prisoners want, they should pay for it themselves. Not only that, but if it's something that they personally feel is so necessary to their well being, they should not do the things that get one incarcerated in the first place, work diligently and save for it.
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Ive already said that SRS is not the only way to treat gender dysphoria. Hormones and transitioning ya know. But if that doesnt work and the dysphoria is still there then the only thing left is SRS. That is when its necessary to relieve the effects of dysphoria.

So what if transsexuals have existed for thousands of years? How does that mean SRS is not necessary for some individuals?

While equal rights and protection from discrimination can cut down on the suicide rate a bit it still wont help with dysphoria. The attempted suicide rate for transsexuals didnt get to 42% just because discrimination.

Even if hormones were more dangerous and more expensive its still something we should provide. But they arnt that dangerous nor are they that expensive.

And the idea that we should withhold necessary procedures for a persons mental health due to them being in jail isnt an idea I can get behind.
 
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Omgitsme said:
Ive already said that SRS is not the only way to treat gender dysphoria. Hormones and transitioning ya know. But if that doesnt work and the dysphoria is still there then the only thing left is SRS. That is when its necessary to relieve the effects of dysphoria.

So what if transsexuals have existed for thousands of years? How does that mean SRS is not necessary for some individuals?

While equal rights and protection from discrimination can cut down on the suicide rate a bit it still wont help with dysphoria. The attempted suicide rate for transsexuals didnt get to 42% just because discrimination.

Even if hormones were more dangerous and more expensive its still something we should provide. But they arnt that dangerous nor are they that expensive.

And the idea that we should withhold necessary procedures for a persons mental health due to them being in jail isnt an idea I can get behind.
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Many people get depressed and commit suicide because they do not have enough money. Should we give all such persons $25,000 to treat their depression?
 
MildSteel said:
I said I was trying to think it out. That's the way I do things. I try to look at it as many ways as possible. It depends on the antidepressant. According to this, some run more than $1000 a month. My understanding is that different ones are effective on different people. Correct my if I'm wrong. So let's suppose for the sake of argument that the hormones were cheaper. Would your position still be the same?



Antidepressants - Consumer Reports Health
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So the presumption is that the $1000/month Rx will be prescribed?
 
American said:
So the presumption is that the $1000/month Rx will be prescribed?
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That's not what I said. I clearly stated the presumption. Read carefully.
 
MildSteel said:
Many people get depressed and commit suicide because they do not have enough money. Should we give all such persons $25,000 to treat their depression?
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:doh.....
 
shrubnose said:
Defense officials say the Pentagon is trying to transfer convicted national security leaker Pvt. Chelsea Manning to a civilian prison so that she can get treatment for her gender disorder.

Read more here: Pentagon pushes Manning transfer for gender treatment




Eventually this person will be freed from prison and will have to be re-integrated into society.

My question is: how much (If anything.) do the rest of us owe this person? The treatment that this person will require will be pretty expensive, I'm sure.

Who is going to pay those bills? Who should pay those bills?

Any ideas?
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First of all this person is a HE not a SHE and HIS name is Daniel NOT Chelsea.

Second - the taxpayers shouldn't be paying for a "sex change" operation. Manning is certainly one confused individual, however there is nothing wrong with him physically.

Third - The notion that this is even being debated shows how screwed our society really is.

What are we going to do next? give prisoners cosmetic surgeries? give female prisoners breast implants??

Men are men and woman are woman - you can not be born a man and then insist you're a woman - that is called mental illness not a biological mistake, and any psychologist who actually believes that a man/woman believes they're the opposite sex has a mental illness themselves and shouldn't be practicing medicine.
 
Mr.Nick said:
First of all this person is a HE not a SHE and HIS name is Daniel NOT Chelsea.

Second - the taxpayers shouldn't be paying for a "sex change" operation. Manning is certainly one confused individual, however there is nothing wrong with him physically.

Third - The notion that this is even being debated shows how screwed our society really is.

What are we going to do next? give prisoners cosmetic surgeries? give female prisoners breast implants??

Men are men and woman are woman - you can not be born a man and then insist you're a woman - that is called mental illness not a biological mistake, and any psychologist who actually believes that a man/woman believes they're the opposite sex has a mental illness themselves and shouldn't be practicing medicine.
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Maybe so, but sex reassignment surgery (GRS) goes on all over this planet and my guess is that it's not going to stop anytime soon.

As a matter of fact, there will likely be more of it in the future.
 
shrubnose said:
Maybe so, but sex reassignment surgery (GRS) goes on all over this planet and my guess is that it's not going to stop anytime soon.

As a matter of fact, there will likely be more of it in the future.
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Well, I'm not going to doubt that, however my opinion on the matter still stands.

These people have mental illness..... There are plenty of people out there with similar mental disorders, and in this case Body integrity identity disorder, yet it is viewed as a mental illness when someone wants to cut their arms off or their legs or whatever body part it may be, yet if a man thinks he's a woman and wants to cut their dong off all of a sudden these wacko psychologists find it perfectly rational and not insane.

So basically you have a mental problem if you don't want arms and want them amputated for no reason - yet you're sane if you're a man who believes they're a woman.

I'm sure If I insisted I was a space alien they would throw me in the loony bin and label me bat**** crazy.

Hell, in the future I'm sure anyone who holds conservative political views will be labeled crazy and thrown in a mental hospital er reeducation camp.

As a libertarian, I could care less what someone does to their own body, but I do take issue if those procedures are done at the taxpayers expense and are labeled sane when they're obviously nuts.
 
Omgitsme said:
Ive already said that SRS is not the only way to treat gender dysphoria. Hormones and transitioning ya know. But if that doesnt work and the dysphoria is still there then the only thing left is SRS. That is when its necessary to relieve the effects of dysphoria.


And the idea that we should withhold necessary procedures for a persons mental health due to them being in jail isnt an idea I can get behind.
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I can get behind that idea.

LIfe isnt fair and there are plenty of people suffering from diseases...mental and physical...that cannot be cured. They have to learn to deal with it, adapt, change their perspectives, find things that alleviate their pain, etc.

What do they do for other patients with mental issues? Drug them....like people... in jail and out...that are manic depressive. Tranq him and let him veg in a cell. That's what he's supposed to be doing anyway. Make him as comfortable as possible but none of this surgery...or transplants, etc on my tax dollars.
 
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