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Thread: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

  1. #151
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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Read more @: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban | KTVB.COM Boise

    Keep the equality tide rolling[/FONT][/COLOR]
    this is way change should be happening, at the state level, not from washington.
    Go Vols

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Thank you Ernst Barkmann and Boudreaux...I have appreciated your discussion.
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    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    things change

    the founders were not immortal, and their successors had to implement what they believed would follow the founding fathers intentions.
    you said 200 years..200 years of what..the founders were classical liberals [libertarians]... and america was run on those ideas for 100 years.....now we have been run on democratic ideas for the last 100 or so years.

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by mtm1963 View Post
    this is way change should be happening, at the state level, not from washington.
    people were supposed to be govern by their state constitutions, not our federal one...but you still cannot use democracy to take rights from people.....

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    i want to make a correction, ......a few times i said force people to give you a license......if should should have been .....force people/business to marry you.

    worldwatcher ......caught my error, and brought it to my attention

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i want to make a correction, ......a few times i said force people to give you a license......if should should have been .....force people/business to marry you.

    worldwatcher ......caught my error, and brought it to my attention

    Marriages are performed by members of the clergy or by authorized person action an as an agent of the government (County Clerks, Justices of the Peace, Mayors, Judges, etc.).

    Other private entities or persons do not perform Civil Marriage ceremonies and they are not "marrying" someone. A business baking a cake does not equal performing a Civil Marriage, a Florist delivering flowers is not performing a Civil Marriage, a Photographer taking pictures is not performing a Civil Marriage. The "marriage" is performed by members of the clergy or a government agent.

    As pointed out before "Civil Marriage" laws are not the issue, the government shouldn't discriminate against it's citizens without a compelling government interest. The problem you keep trying to address (in this vain of the discussion) are Public Accommodation law that require private for-profit business to provide full and equal services to customers and prevent discrimination in the delivery of those goods and services based on various factors that include race, religion, national origin (at the federal level) and additionally can include at the state level (which can vary by state) - gender, sexual orienation, veterans status, family status, parental status, age, etc.





    The funny thing is that the recent high profile cases Sweetcakes by Melissa (Oregon), Elane Photogrpahy (New Mexico), and Masterpiece Cakes (Colorado) all occurred under Public Accommodation laws in states where there was no Civil Marriage.



    >>>>

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It is a somewhat important distinction since orientation would probably fall under Rational Basis Review, while gender falls under Intermediate Scrutiny.
    And since you like details, on top of this not being a states rights issue the "scrutiny" is also in question. Its has been thrust into the grey and questionable areas. While of course its not national yet and SCOTUS bailed on making the distinction GSK v. Abbott did ask that very question and ruled it should be Heightened Scrutiny. Just an FYI but your probably already knew. If not the long name is GLAXOSMITHKLINE V. ABBOTT LABS and heres a link:

    https://casetext.com/case/glaxosmith...s#.U3QCX_mIDPw


    this is why I include this in my equal rights "updates" I post because it could end up being a very HUGE piece of the puzzle helping completing equality.
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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Marriages are performed by members of the clergy or by authorized person action an as an agent of the government (County Clerks, Justices of the Peace, Mayors, Judges, etc.).

    Other private entities or persons do not perform Civil Marriage ceremonies and they are not "marrying" someone. A business baking a cake does not equal performing a Civil Marriage, a Florist delivering flowers is not performing a Civil Marriage, a Photographer taking pictures is not performing a Civil Marriage. The "marriage" is performed by members of the clergy or a government agent.

    As pointed out before "Civil Marriage" laws are not the issue, the government shouldn't discriminate against it's citizens without a compelling government interest. The problem you keep trying to address (in this vain of the discussion) are Public Accommodation law that require private for-profit business to provide full and equal services to customers and prevent discrimination in the delivery of those goods and services based on various factors that include race, religion, national origin (at the federal level) and additionally can include at the state level (which can vary by state) - gender, sexual orienation, veterans status, family status, parental status, age, etc.





    The funny thing is that the recent high profile cases Sweetcakes by Melissa (Oregon), Elane Photogrpahy (New Mexico), and Masterpiece Cakes (Colorado) all occurred under Public Accommodation laws in states where there was no Civil Marriage.



    >>>>
    Well you missed a couple ,there are business and people like a captain of a ship that have authority to marry.

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Well you missed a couple ,there are business and people like a captain of a ship that have authority to marry.

    Ship Captains, by virtue of their maritime license are not authorized to perform Civil Marriages. They have to also fall under one of the other classifications of persons either clergy or someone acting as a government agent.

    I checked the code of Virginia and there is no default authorization that allows a ships captain to officiate a Civil Marriage for licenses issued by the Commonwealth. To be entitled to perform Civil Marriages they must also be clergy of acting in another government agent capacity.

    According to federal regulation Navy Captains are not allowed to perform marriages on ships.

    Can Boat Captains Really Marry People? | Mental Floss
    The Straight Dope: Are ships' captains allowed to marry people at sea?


    >>>>
    Last edited by WorldWatcher; 05-15-14 at 09:36 AM.

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    Re: Judge strikes down Idaho's same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Ship Captains, by virtue of their maritime license are not authorized to perform Civil Marriages. They have to also fall under one of the other classifications of persons either clergy or someone acting as a government agent.

    I checked the code of Virginia and there is no default authorization that allows a ships captain to officiate a Civil Marriage for licenses issued by the Commonwealth. To be entitled to perform Civil Marriages they must also be clergy of acting in another government agent capacity.

    According to federal regulation Navy Captains are not allowed to perform marriages on ships.

    Can Boat Captains Really Marry People? | Mental Floss
    The Straight Dope: Are ships' captains allowed to marry people at sea?


    >>>>
    i concede a great deal on the ships captain ..but .......not all the way true on captains, in reading say CA LAW...... its states that a captain of a ship can solemnized marriage if he qualifies under Family Code, Section 400-401.

    meaning he was once a judge, and no longer one...and now a captain of a ship, and i believe this also applies to other states.


    Freedom of association
    with two competing views of the world

    [A]rights-oriented liberalism that holds that a person's identity comes from individual choices (and that government ought to create a framework of laws that remove barriers to choice) ....which would be supported by libertarians

    [B]communitarianism, that holds that a person's identity comes from the communities of which an individual is a part (and that communities are an important buffer between the government and the individual) which would he supported by progressives

    rights-oriented liberalism is based on negative rights

    communitarianism is based on positive rights

    liberty liberty and the pursue of happiness are .......negative rights.

    Negative rights can be respected simply by each person refraining from interfering with each other, while it may be difficult or even impossible to fulfill everyone's positive rights if the sum of people's claims outstrips the resources available.

    NATURAL RIGHTS/LIBERTARIANISM

    I The idea of natural rights

    A. What is a right?
    1. Restrictions on what others may do,
    2. creating obligations to observe them,
    3. which are enforceable (i.e., by justified coercion—resistance,
    compensation, punishment);
    B. What is a natural right?
    1. A right (and obligation) that is universal;
    2. held by all persons;
    3. Grounded in the nature of persons.

    II Rights, Dignity, and Respect

    A. Universal human rights and the idea of human dignity
    B. Dignity as the object of respect: all human beings are entitled to respect of
    their human rights.

    III. John Locke and natural rights

    A. Locke’s Second Treatise of Government (1690) and the critique of the Divine
    Right of Kings

    B. Locke: “Men being, . . ., by nature all free, equal, and independent, no one
    can be put out of this estate and subjected to the political power of another
    without his own consent.” (B, 531) Social contract theory: the authority of
    political society depends upon mutual consent.
    C. Each person has “by nature” an equal right to life, liberty, and property. (B,
    534)
    D. Property rights in things derive from a fundamental natural right each has “of
    property in his own person.” (B, 527)
    1. Start with the premise that each person owns him or herself.
    2. Now consider things in the “state of nature” (i.e., to which no one has
    a prior right)—call these “natural things”
    3. Suppose a person “removes [something] out of the state that nature has
    provided, and left it in,” and “mixe[s] his labour” with it. (B, 527)
    4. Suppose also that someone else could then make use of this thing (or
    whatever was produced by it) without the first person’s consent.
    5. Then, in effect, the second would be able to make use of the labor and
    person of the first without his consent.
    6. But that contradicts the premise that each person owns him or herself.
    7. Therefore, no person may make use of the “appropriated” thing
    without the (first) person’s consent
    8. Therefore, that person has a property right to that thing.
    9. Note, however, Locke’s qualification: property can be acquired by
    labor on previously unowned parts of nature so long as “there is
    enough, and as good, left in common, for others.” (B, 527)

    III. Therefore, according to Locke’s theory of natural rights, any human being has an
    equal natural right to life, health, liberty, and to acquire property.

    IV. Contemporary libertarianism

    A. Starts with a roughly Lockean view about natural human rights.
    B. Distinguishes negative rights vs. positive rights.
    1. A negative right is a right to other people forbearing from interference
    in other’s lives: e.g., by violence, theft, fraud, etc.
    2. A positive right is a right to other people acting in certain “positive”
    ways for the person. E.g., a right to to education would be a positive
    right; it would be violated unless education were provided.
    3. A test: a right claim concerns a negative right if it can be respected by
    doing nothing at all. Otherwise, it is a positive right.
    C. Libertarians claim that only negative rights exist: There are no positive rights.
    D. This is equivalent to holding that while people may be coerced not to interfere
    with others (i.e., not to violate their negative rights), no one may be coerced to
    provide positive benefits.
    E. Consequently, libertarians argue, to force anyone to do so is to violate their
    negative rights.

    V. Hospers’ formulation.

    A. Underlying Principles
    1. Everyone his/her own master.
    2. Others’ lives are not yours.
    3. No one should be a “nonvoluntary mortgage” on the life of another.
    B. Natural Rights
    1. Life
    2. Liberty
    3. Property
    C. Laws
    1. No laws protecting individuals against themselves.
    2. Laws against aggression.
    3. No laws requiring people to benefit or help others in need.

    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sdarwall/355l499.txt

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