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Thread: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    You're seriously arguing that a label is the linchpin that sways the debate?

    I've already tried to explain what the two different labels mean, yet you cling to the notion it is the product of poor science coming apart at the seams. Bizarre does not begin to describe this kind of rationale.
    Look how easily you cede the point. Yes...you HAD to abandon the AGW label because the data always falls short. You have to try to find SOME new tactic to make it relevant, so you co-opt a label that is undeniable. OF COURSE the climate changes.

    Now...about that whole 'proof that man causes climate change" thing....

    You what is REALLY pathetic? People like you kept your mouths shut on Global Warming until Bush became president. Even though Kyoto was passed in 1996, people didnt say dick about Bill Clintons 'failure' to sign Kyoto. They waited until George Bush became pres and then for 8 years you wore your arms out banging that drum. Since Obama became president? Crickets. If a republican is elected, you will go right back to the protests and rallies and demands for action. If a democrat is elected...more silence.

    Pathetic.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Solar power on a large scale is at best an oxymoron - at worst a waste of money. Solar power is too inefficient and you couldn't move a train if you tried with solar power.

    Wind and turbines on the other hand makes way more sense.

    Obviously free energy is impossible but wind turbines is the key to the future of energy - that and different forms of friction.
    Photovoltaic power is indeed low density, but now that we have the ability to store energy in man made hydrocarbons,
    the density of the energy is not as important.
    By having a real storage method, the energy can be accumulated, to the desired density.
    A quick back of the napkin calculation.
    SolarEdge Solar Power System - 20 SolarWorld Solar Panels
    this system says it has 20, 275 watt panels and produces 741 kWh per month,
    the panels are 25 '^2 each,
    An acre is 44,000 square feet, so lets say you can cover 25,000 '^2 with panels.
    25,000/25= 1000, IF 20 panels produced 741 kWh per month,
    1000 panels would produce 741*50 = 37,050 kWh per month.
    Diesel takes about 66kWh per gallon to make, so one acre of panels,
    would make about 37,050/66= 561 gallons per month.
    This may not sound like much, until you see how much corn you can get out of an acre,
    or how many acres you need for each wind turbine.
    the wind does not blow everywhere, but the sun shines almost every day, and every where.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Look how easily you cede the point. Yes...you HAD to abandon the AGW label because the data always falls short. You have to try to find SOME new tactic to make it relevant, so you co-opt a label that is undeniable. OF COURSE the climate changes.

    Now...about that whole 'proof that man causes climate change" thing....

    You what is REALLY pathetic? People like you kept your mouths shut on Global Warming until Bush became president. Even though Kyoto was passed in 1996, people didnt say dick about Bill Clintons 'failure' to sign Kyoto. They waited until George Bush became pres and then for 8 years you wore your arms out banging that drum. Since Obama became president? Crickets. If a republican is elected, you will go right back to the protests and rallies and demands for action. If a democrat is elected...more silence.

    Pathetic.
    This is actually humorous. All the labelling changes have always been a product of politics and the media. The science and scientific theory has never wavered. What is equally funny is this second grade game of well they are just as bad as us name calling. To top all this off your facts are just more than a little off. The Clinton Administration DID sign onto the Kyoto Protocols what they did not do, as a result of politics, was submit the treaty for approval noting Senate opposition. The furor of the Bush Administration began shortly after they took over in '01 because they immediately scrapped the Kyoto Protocols and removed the U.S. from participation. The two are not exactly equal and to say the Clinton Administration did nothing is a lie.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Look how easily you cede the point. Yes...you HAD to abandon the AGW label because the data always falls short. You have to try to find SOME new tactic to make it relevant, so you co-opt a label that is undeniable. OF COURSE the climate changes.

    Now...about that whole 'proof that man causes climate change" thing....

    You what is REALLY pathetic? People like you kept your mouths shut on Global Warming until Bush became president. Even though Kyoto was passed in 1996, people didnt say dick about Bill Clintons 'failure' to sign Kyoto. They waited until George Bush became pres and then for 8 years you wore your arms out banging that drum. Since Obama became president? Crickets. If a republican is elected, you will go right back to the protests and rallies and demands for action. If a democrat is elected...more silence.

    Pathetic.
    Nobody has abandoned AGW, regardless of the label it is still the driver of climate change. When somebody says "global warming" it sounds as if the effect is that it gets warmer everywhere on Earth. Overall this is true but it does not really tell the whole story. Climate change is a much better label because it encompasses all the many effects of global warming. It is wetter in some areas, drier in others, weather patterns change, warmer in some areas, cooler in others. Under AGW "climate change" the climate is still getting warmer overall.

    I imagine you did not read the Wikipedia links about global warming and climate change so that you can understand for yourself what the labels mean.

    Clinton, Bush, Obama... I really do not give a **** about them. They are not our daddies that we need to make everything better for us. If we want to change policy for the better it is up to the people to demand it. As long as many remain ignorant and support the destruction of the environment in exchange for short term profits we are going to be bound by a serious problem that will likely have devastating consequences. This is bigger than petty left vs right politics.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Nobody has abandoned AGW, regardless of the label it is still the driver of climate change. When somebody says "global warming" it sounds as if the effect is that it gets warmer everywhere on Earth. Overall this is true but it does not really tell the whole story. Climate change is a much better label because it encompasses all the many effects of global warming. It is wetter in some areas, drier in others, weather patterns change, warmer in some areas, cooler in others. Under AGW "climate change" the climate is still getting warmer overall.

    I imagine you did not read the Wikipedia links about global warming and climate change so that you can understand for yourself what the labels mean.

    Clinton, Bush, Obama... I really do not give a **** about them. They are not our daddies that we need to make everything better for us. If we want to change policy for the better it is up to the people to demand it. As long as many remain ignorant and support the destruction of the environment in exchange for short term profits we are going to be bound by a serious problem that will likely have devastating consequences. This is bigger than petty left vs right politics.
    Its funny you continue this pretense that the names and labels dont matter, and yet...what happened to the Global Warming rhetoric? It was abandoned...because for all the hype and all the 'consensus', the raw data has great big gaping holes. Thats why the AGW crowd has usurped the "Climate change" label...because hell...at least we KNOW the climate will always change. Then if someone questions mans involvement in the process you can scream like Donald Sutherland and have SOME semblance of credibility.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by smb View Post
    This is actually humorous. All the labelling changes have always been a product of politics and the media. The science and scientific theory has never wavered. What is equally funny is this second grade game of well they are just as bad as us name calling. To top all this off your facts are just more than a little off. The Clinton Administration DID sign onto the Kyoto Protocols what they did not do, as a result of politics, was submit the treaty for approval noting Senate opposition. The furor of the Bush Administration began shortly after they took over in '01 because they immediately scrapped the Kyoto Protocols and removed the U.S. from participation. The two are not exactly equal and to say the Clinton Administration did nothing is a lie.
    Cute. SO...they signed the treaty which did nothing and refused to submit it to the Senate for passage for 4 years (and not because of 'politics' but because the Byrd Amendment GUARANTEED it would never pass)...but boy...you can come out from under the rocks when Bush was president (and you did...for 8 long years). And now...poooooooooof....vapor...

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its funny you continue this pretense that the names and labels dont matter, and yet...what happened to the Global Warming rhetoric? It was abandoned...because for all the hype and all the 'consensus', the raw data has great big gaping holes. Thats why the AGW crowd has usurped the "Climate change" label...because hell...at least we KNOW the climate will always change. Then if someone questions mans involvement in the process you can scream like Donald Sutherland and have SOME semblance of credibility.


    I think I'm going to give up on you. Cling to ignorance and right-wing conspiracy, I don't care. A morning of basic research could clean up all these misconceptions but you are resistant to new information.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post


    I think I'm going to give up on you. Cling to ignorance and right-wing conspiracy, I don't care. A morning of basic research could clean up all these misconceptions but you are resistant to new information.
    Dont give up...just tell me you have definitive poof that mankind has caused the 'global warming' and show us the raw data that supports it. Or...you know...just admit that you are a cause driven puppet that bought into the Global Warming Argument when Gore was banging that drum like a monkey and you are un-curious and un-skeptical and believe everything without questioning and are willing to parrot other peoples words in the glorious pursuit of your cause.

    You know what the one constant has been about the climate since there has BEEN a climate? Change.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Dont give up...just tell me you have definitive poof that mankind has caused the 'global warming' and show us the raw data that supports it. Or...you know...just admit that you are a cause driven puppet that bought into the Global Warming Argument when Gore was banging that drum like a monkey and you are un-curious and un-skeptical and believe everything without questioning and are willing to parrot other peoples words in the glorious pursuit of your cause.

    You know what the one constant has been about the climate since there has BEEN a climate? Change.
    Have you ever taken a look at the evidence? I know you haven't because you say things that make it obvious you know absolutely nothing about climate science or science in general. Take for instance your meme about "climate has always been changing". Ignorant people think this is witty, little do they know they give away their understanding when they do it. Of course the climate is constantly changing, anyone who was awake during high school Earth science would know this. When we talk about agw we are talking about changing the climate from its natural variability. If you took even a preliminary look at the evidence you would know this.

    You mock me for having faith in science? Look at what science has given us, the computer you're communicating with, the moon landing, the theory of relativity. Science as a whole has a stellar record. So what am I going to trust? Science or... right-wing blogs? Politicians? I don't trust Al Gore, I trust science. Should I trust the fossil fuel industry over science? I don't think so. If you knew even the first thing about science and scientists, you would know that they care about the truth more than money, or fame, or anything. They are devoted to their work and only care about discovery, about learning. Yet you think these same people are all part of an elaborate conspiracy to lie? How stupid is that.

    So really, who is the fool here? Tell me who it is you trust?

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

    QUOTE=VanceMack;1063311427]Cute. SO...they signed the treaty which did nothing and refused to submit it to the Senate for passage for 4 years (and not because of 'politics' but because the Byrd Amendment GUARANTEED it would never pass)...but boy...you can come out from under the rocks when Bush was president (and you did...for 8 long years). And now...poooooooooof....vapor...[/QUOTE]

    So you admit that your previous post was either in error or intentionally misleading whe you stated President Clinton failed to sign Kyoto. A little progress here.

    Now to the larger point of your argument. Does it really matter what other Presidents have or have not done in the past? Or how active people are or are not at any point in time on this issue? We are confronted with the accelerating effects climate change. Finger pointing seems to me to be just a bit childish at this point.

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