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Thread: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    this is appeal to authority that doesn't hold water. we are allowed to have valid opinions on the situation more so if it doesn't pass the smell test and what the IPCC is doing doesn't pass the smell test.
    Don't make me put up the definition of appeal to authority again. I hate when you guys misuse that a appeal. That's a fallacy only when you use someone who is not actually an authority on the subject. It is quite proper to use actual authorities, those who actually know.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    only 3 of their models actually were close to the observed data. so the question is why are not all the model recaliberated to those 3.
    more so why are they always chooses the biggest doom and gloom models for their reports when there is little data to back them up.

    the IPCC is nothing more than a political body doing hack science work in order to push a political agenda.
    That's part of the problem. The models don't agree, they use differing values for supposedly known variables (like CO2 sensitivity) and still claim it is settled science.

    If AGW were settled science there would be only one model and it would be in agreement with observed climate data.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Whether that is true or not, you and I are not in the best position to say. The scientific community has a better understanding and thus a more valid opinion on the matter.
    That logic is greatly flawed. While there may be general agreement that man's activity affects the climate (it is warming and man is likely accelerating that warming a bit) there is no general agreement on what impact (if any) a US only effort to reduce carbon emissions will have.

    The US is now responsible for about 20% (at most) of total CO2 emissions and may (reasonably) be able to reduce that by 25% (over a few decades). At the same time, other nations are producing more CO2, so the US impact falls (all by itself) as a percentage of the world total. The real question is: what would a 5% to 10% reduction in man's world CO2 production accomplish?

    Having "experts" agree upon the definition of a problem is not the same thing as having "experts" agree upon a viable solution to that problem. After all, the US (or UN) cannot command anything be done on a worldwide basis - even if "experts" say that it should (must?) be done
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But you didn't ask that question. You asked about the political solution, and not about how much of a role man plays. You leap away from from the discussion. If you agree Global warming is real, and you believe man plays a role, then you and only then can you discuss possible solutions to the problem or how to decrease man's role.

    And no, j, I only control what I'm talking about, and only support what I claim. I am not required to leap of cliffs with you at your whim.
    Aren't you special. The use of taxation and wealth redistribution on a global scale through creation of a fiat currency in furtherance of greater control over the masses is the goal of the church of AGW believer's. The junk science is just the rhetoric to further the lie.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Aren't you special. The use of taxation and wealth redistribution on a global scale through creation of a fiat currency in furtherance of greater control over the masses is the goal of the church of AGW believer's. The junk science is just the rhetoric to further the lie.

    Here's a little of that junk science to help you out. Read the complete article.


    Eight Pseudoscientific Climate Claims Debunked by Real Scientists | Connecting the Dots | BillMoyers.com

    "“That’s one of the cherrypicking points for deniers — they take the highest value and then compare it” with lower points in the natural temperature fluctuation we know as “weather.” “If you choose the highest value,” says Trenberth, “then the odds are that all the other values are going to be lower — even in the presence of an overall warming climate.”Here’s what the long-term warming trend looks like, according to both surface and ocean readings:
    (Graphic: National Aeronautics and Space Administration Goddard Institute for Space Studies)

    But the idea that the climate stopped warming at some point goes back even further. In the 1990s, two climatologists, Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen, published a series of papers hypothesizing that global warming had stopped. Spencer and Lindzen are among the few climate contrarians with real scientific credentials, and have been widely cited by climate skeptics; Spencer has testified at a number of Republican congressional hearings on climate science.
    "And 168 more…
    These are only some of the most common pseudoscientific climate arguments. The Skeptical Science website provides easy-to-understand scientific rebuttals to these and 168 others."

    There is some dispute on the 168 number, as my buddy "Fingers" Menoshole says there are only 167. Who ya' gonna' believe, eh?

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    longview's Avatar
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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Whether that is true or not, you and I are not in the best position to say. The scientific community has a better understanding and thus a more valid opinion on the matter.
    I have to disagree, some, there are levels of understanding Science.
    Like the approximations in a mathematics formula.
    It 's not that the numbers change based on more understanding, they just get more accurate.
    I like to use road trip analogies, as most people have some experience in planning and driving.
    Someone plans a trip to another city that is 200 miles away.
    They want some idea of how long the trip will take, and how much gas they will use.
    The basic variables, are, route taken, road conditions, number of stops, ect.
    A non traffic interstate, with no stops cold do the trip in 3 hours, and 10 gallons of gas
    The older hwy route, going through towns, say 6 hours, and 12 gallons of gas.
    This would be the first approximation.
    An Engineer asked the same question, may also want to know the weather conditions,
    and speed limits in the states passed.
    With the added information, the results could be refined to within a 15 min window,
    and quart of gasoline,based on the input info.
    This would be the second approximation.
    The Scientist, might get the department of transportation data,
    and average the time 100,000 drivers took to make the trip on the primary route.
    They could tell the average time, likely down to the minute,
    and the average amount of gasoline likely used on the trip.
    This would be the third approximation.
    All three approximations still fall into the 3 to 6 hours, and 10 to 12 gallons of gasoline,
    the layman driver calculated.
    The added information, improved the accuracy, but did not change the time fuel window.

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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Don't make me put up the definition of appeal to authority again. I hate when you guys misuse that a appeal. That's a fallacy only when you use someone who is not actually an authority on the subject. It is quite proper to use actual authorities, those who actually know.
    The fact is they don't know. They have admitted that they are not exactly sure how earths climate works on long term trends. Therefore at this point they are simply guessing.

    actually that is not correct there are several layers to an appeal to authority in which it can be used as a fallacy.

    For example: “Well, Isaac Newton believed in Alchemy, do you think you know more than Isaac Newton?”

    is basically what you did. scientist X knows more therefore who are you to question what they do.
    an appeal to authority can be made in several different ways.

    trying to shoot down someone's argument simply because they are not an expert is one of those ways.
    stating that we are not allowed to question someone's motives or conclusions because we are not experts is another.

  8. #538
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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Here's a little of that junk science to help you out. Read the complete article.


    Eight Pseudoscientific Climate Claims Debunked by Real Scientists | Connecting the Dots | BillMoyers.com

    "“That’s one of the cherrypicking points for deniers — they take the highest value and then compare it” with lower points in the natural temperature fluctuation we know as “weather.” “If you choose the highest value,” says Trenberth, “then the odds are that all the other values are going to be lower — even in the presence of an overall warming climate.”Here’s what the long-term warming trend looks like, according to both surface and ocean readings:
    (Graphic: National Aeronautics and Space Administration Goddard Institute for Space Studies)

    But the idea that the climate stopped warming at some point goes back even further. In the 1990s, two climatologists, Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen, published a series of papers hypothesizing that global warming had stopped. Spencer and Lindzen are among the few climate contrarians with real scientific credentials, and have been widely cited by climate skeptics; Spencer has testified at a number of Republican congressional hearings on climate science.
    "And 168 more…
    These are only some of the most common pseudoscientific climate arguments. The Skeptical Science website provides easy-to-understand scientific rebuttals to these and 168 others."

    There is some dispute on the 168 number, as my buddy "Fingers" Menoshole says there are only 167. Who ya' gonna' believe, eh?
    Explain the carbon credit exchange system please.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  9. #539
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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That logic is greatly flawed. While there may be general agreement that man's activity affects the climate (it is warming and man is likely accelerating that warming a bit) there is no general agreement on what impact (if any) a US only effort to reduce carbon emissions will have.

    The US is now responsible for about 20% (at most) of total CO2 emissions and may (reasonably) be able to reduce that by 25% (over a few decades). At the same time, other nations are producing more CO2, so the US impact falls (all by itself) as a percentage of the world total. The real question is: what would a 5% to 10% reduction in man's world CO2 production accomplish?

    Having "experts" agree upon the definition of a problem is not the same thing as having "experts" agree upon a viable solution to that problem. After all, the US (or UN) cannot command anything be done on a worldwide basis - even if "experts" say that it should (must?) be done
    Nor did I say it was. I said they had a better understanding of the problem. If we agree on the problem, then and only then can we reasonably discuss the solution.

    And even if we're only 20% of the problem, that doesn't relieve us of responsibility for our 20%.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #540
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    Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Aren't you special. The use of taxation and wealth redistribution on a global scale through creation of a fiat currency in furtherance of greater control over the masses is the goal of the church of AGW believer's. The junk science is just the rhetoric to further the lie.
    Again, either you accept science or you don't. That's the issue here.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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