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Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

longview said:
It actually is that simple, that is why they have such a big range in the predictions. Not only do they not know what all the variables that affect the feedbacks are, For many they cannot even tell if the feedback will be positive or negative. An example, Extra heat causes humidity to increase, causing more clouds. Do cloudy conditions add to, or take away from total warming?
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I quite disagree. They consensus is so wide spread that there seems little doubt on the issue. And the novice clearly gets a lot a wrong. More than once the concerns have been addressed by scientists and rather consistently the novice has been wrong.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

ludin said:
if it stood by itself then they shouldn't have such a hard time trying to convience people. more so they wouldn't have to hijack a real term "climate change" to push their agenda.
their global warming term failed so they hijacked a real term.
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Don't you remember how long it took to convince people smoking was harmful? They set the precedence rather convincingly. What someone doesn't want to believe, he won't no matter the evidence. The denier will cling to anything. No matter how small, no matter how poorly supported. Business learned that lessen far better than the bulk of the citizentry has.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

longview said:
It actually is that simple, that is why they have such a big range in the predictions.
Not only do they not know what all the variables that affect the feedbacks are,
For many they cannot even tell if the feedback will be positive or negative.
An example, Extra heat causes humidity to increase, causing more clouds.
Do cloudy conditions add to, or take away from total warming?
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just like Co2 it does both. not only will it absorb so much heat it also reflects incoming heat back out into space.

that is the thing as well co2 can only absorb so much heat. just as water vapor can only abosrb so much heat but there is way more water vapor in the sky than there is co2.
in fact water vapor makes up 97% of greenhouse gases.

it also reflects heat back out into space.

what is interesting is that we are techincally still in a thawing phase from the ice age, and probably the little ice age as well.

for some reason that alarmist think that earth climate should never change and that would simply be untrue. you would end up destroying more and more
than helping.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Boo Radley said:
Wrong. The science stands by itself.
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No, it really doesn't. The so called "science" on this is now propaganda.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Boo Radley said:
I quite disagree. They consensus is so wide spread that there seems little doubt on the issue. And the novice clearly gets a lot a wrong. More than once the concerns have been addressed by scientists and rather consistently the novice has been wrong.
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addressed by people that believe in AGW and there is not a consenses by any stretch of the imagination.

The Latest Meteorologist Survey Destroys The Global Warming Climate 'Consensus' - Forbes

not to mention the nipcc is gaining ground in scientific circles.

if the consensus was so complete and not at issues then you wouldn't have climate scientists pulling their names and work from the report due to the IPCC corrupting the data.

UN Scientists Who Have Turned on the UN IPCC & Man-Made Climate Fears — A Climate Depot Flashback Report | Climate Depot

the only consensus is imaginary to alarmists to try and shut down debate.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Boo Radley said:
Wrong. The science stands by itself.
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The Science that supports the Direct Response of CO2 is fairly solid,
But the additional warming caused by the open loop feedback called forcing,
is almost pure speculation.
It would be very difficult to identify any of this forcing in the instrument record.
The .2 C that could be attributed to forcing, could also be completely natural.
Now the .6 C from the direct response of the CO2 increase is on fairly solid ground,
but is neither alarming nor earth changing.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Boo Radley said:
I quite disagree. They consensus is so wide spread that there seems little doubt on the issue. And the novice clearly gets a lot a wrong. More than once the concerns have been addressed by scientists and rather consistently the novice has been wrong.
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You are free to disagree, and that is how Science is done,by disagreement, not by consensus.
The reality is there is no real consensus among Scientist, "an extremely broad understanding",
might be a better statement, but does not carry the same weight.
The way the sampling was done, would put myself in the warming camp, which I am not.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
Until it is uncoupled from the hysterical politics it is just not credible.
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LOL.

The science can't be correct because you don't like the potential political solutions!

I don't even think they've invented a name for this logical fallacy yet.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Except that every time it's happened before, we've been able to identify what caused it. This time, however, there's none of those other factors involved...but there IS a new factor that was never involved before: people pumping literally billions and billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere...every freaking year.

Guy, you do know that every gallon of gasoline burned results in 20 lbs. of CO2 into the atmosphere, right? Look it up - it's simple chemistry. There's a half billion cars operating today, and I think we can safely say each one uses at least a tank per week. So if I'm REALLY kind and say that each car uses only 10 gallons of gas per week, that's 10 times 500M times 20 lbs. of CO2...

...every single week. And that's not counting factories or ships or aircraft or trains or military vehicles or trucks.

What's amazing is that your side has convinced itself that we can pump billions and billions of tons of CO2 into our atmosphere (and deforest tens of thousands of square miles of CO2-absorbing forest) each and every year, but nothing would change in our atmosphere. You can only crap in your own crib for so long before it starts to really stink, guy - and the earth is the crib of humanity.
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And all that still doesn't add up to all the cow farts.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, there would always be something. But let's follow your logic. We can't trust science. What then? We can only trust those who don't know anything about it? Well, then don't go to a doctor. Money's involved, so see aunt Sarah. She's never been to med school, but so what? This is your logic at work.
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Sadly, these days science has become infiltrated and corrupted by money. Politicians have figured out how to virtually launder money through scaring people with made-up science. That's the case with AGW.

This is the same science that has people popping pills at an alarming rate. The drug companies are making a fortune on the same scare tactics. People don't need to take 10 percent of what they are taking.

And remember 25 years ago when we were all going to drop like flies from AIDS? What happened to that?

There's a sliver of the scientific world still working as it should. But so much of it is purely bent on greed and political manipulation.
 
Erod said:
Sadly, these days science has become infiltrated and corrupted by money. Politicians have figured out how to virtually launder money through scaring people with made-up science. That's the case with AGW.

This is the same science that has people popping pills at an alarming rate. The drug companies are making a fortune on the same scare tactics. People don't need to take 10 percent of what they are taking.

And remember 25 years ago when we were all going to drop like flies from AIDS? What happened to that?
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Stunning ignorance. Really.

You realize that the people who are HIV positive DO need to continue popping pills at a steady rate to prevent AIDS, right?

You realize the advent of effective therapies that we got through science is the reason that we are all not dropping dead from AIDS since we have been able to arrest the propagation of the virus in humans with effective treatment, right?

You realize that there were scientific skeptics (with good scientific credentials) in the 90s who didnt believe that HIV caused AIDS, and got a lot of nutjobs to believe that the 'consensus' that HIV causes AIDS was not really a consensus, or not true, or in doubt, and that science basically kicked that concepts ass, much like it is doing with climate science deniers now, right?

The 'sliver' of the scientific world you think is working apparently is the sliver of folks who are telling you what you want to hear. Thats not really how science works, you know.
 
Threegoofs said:
Stunning ignorance. Really.

You realize that the people who are HIV positive DO need to continue popping pills at a steady rate to prevent AIDS, right?

You realize the advent of effective therapies that we got through science is the reason that we are all not dropping dead from AIDS since we have been able to arrest the propagation of the virus in humans with effective treatment, right?

You realize that there were scientific skeptics (with good scientific credentials) in the 90s who didnt believe that HIV caused AIDS, and got a lot of nutjobs to believe that the 'consensus' that HIV causes AIDS was not really a consensus, or not true, or in doubt, and that science basically kicked that concepts ass, much like it is doing with climate science deniers now, right?

The 'sliver' of the scientific world you think is working apparently is the sliver of folks who are telling you what you want to hear. Thats not really how science works, you know.
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But it is how it works on the church of AGW. They had the "political solution" ie; carbon credits and the conclusion to meet to get there. Then they manipulate the data to drive hysteria. Sorry that's not science.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
No, it really doesn't. The so called "science" on this is now propaganda.
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It is fascinating to watch, over time, how easy it is to propagandize leftists. They are so often prepared to believe anything, despite the falseness of their beliefs being out there for every rational person to see.
 
j-mac said:
But it is how it works on the church of AGW. They had the "political solution" ie; carbon credits and the conclusion to meet to get there. Then they manipulate the data to drive hysteria. Sorry that's not science.
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It only seems like that to you because you're not thinking linearly or logically.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Grant said:
It is fascinating to watch, over time, how easy it is to propagandize leftists. They are so often prepared to believe anything, despite the falseness of their beliefs being out there for every rational person to see.
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I actually think it's the other way around.

I'm a scientist by profession and training, and I've seen the right wing over time move into this bizarre anti science mentality that used to be the province of the left (GMOs, etc). It's moved my lean to 'slightly liberal' from 'slightly conservative' even though I haven't changed...
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Threegoofs said:
I actually think it's the other way around.

I'm a scientist by profession and training, and I've seen the right wing over time move into this bizarre anti science mentality that used to be the province of the left (GMOs, etc). It's moved my lean to 'slightly liberal' from 'slightly conservative' even though I haven't changed...
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So when you scientists get together after a new theory is proposed do you vote on its veracity or do you wait until the final proof is in?
 
Threegoofs said:
Stunning ignorance. Really.

You realize that the people who are HIV positive DO need to continue popping pills at a steady rate to prevent AIDS, right?

You realize the advent of effective therapies that we got through science is the reason that we are all not dropping dead from AIDS since we have been able to arrest the propagation of the virus in humans with effective treatment, right?

You realize that there were scientific skeptics (with good scientific credentials) in the 90s who didnt believe that HIV caused AIDS, and got a lot of nutjobs to believe that the 'consensus' that HIV causes AIDS was not really a consensus, or not true, or in doubt, and that science basically kicked that concepts ass, much like it is doing with climate science deniers now, right?

The 'sliver' of the scientific world you think is working apparently is the sliver of folks who are telling you what you want to hear. Thats not really how science works, you know.
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Almost entirely gay men and drug users, buddy.
 
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Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Grant said:
So when you scientists get together after a new theory is proposed do you vote on its veracity or do you wait until the final proof is in?
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There usually is never final proof.

But we certainly come to a consensus on many issues, otherwise, you can't do science.

You have to accept that a drug that is designed to act upon a target receptor will do so, and IS doing so when it elicits the response you predict. You have to accept that when you let go of the brick above your foot, you will have it descend in a straight line because gravity exists, and your foot has no natural brick repellant or attractant properties.

What is never done is looking at a potential set of results and then discarding them because you don't agree with the options you have in dealing with said results.
 
Personally, I think the good old USA is just peeing into the wind unless one can get China, India, Russia and other countries to come on board. All that we are doing is making services and good cost a whole lot more in this country while not accomplishing a dog gone thing globally.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Threegoofs said:
There usually is never final proof.

But we certainly come to a consensus on many issues, otherwise, you can't do science.

You have to accept that a drug that is designed to act upon a target receptor will do so, and IS doing so when it elicits the response you predict. You have to accept that when you let go of the brick above your foot, you will have it descend in a straight line because gravity exists, and your foot has no natural brick repellant or attractant properties.

What is never done is looking at a potential set of results and then discarding them because you don't agree with the options you have in dealing with said results.
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The hard to accept part is that the very same "models" that are said to demand immediate action do not play out as advertised. Show me the shoreline that moved inland 2 miles as predicted by the models. The standard answer seems to be that if we wait until that occurs then it will be too late to fix it. Sine we do not know what adding a given amount of CO2 will do then we cannot know what not adding that same amount of CO2 will do.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Threegoofs said:
There usually is never final proof. But we certainly come to a consensus on many issues, otherwise, you can't do science.
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And how is this consensus arrived at? Is it 51-49, 60-40? 90-10? Is there ever any coercion on scientists to accept evidence that perhaps might not be complete. Do Grants pay a roll in their findings? Or threats?

You have to accept that a drug that is designed to act upon a target receptor will do so, and IS doing so when it elicits the response you predict.
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We have accepted drugs in the past, like thalidomide, which have proven harmful. In fact we have seen scientists telling us cigarettes did no harm. Just as scientists have to be skeptical of their findings so has the public learned to be skeptical of scientists.
You have to accept that when you let go of the brick above your foot, you will have it descend in a straight line because gravity exists, and your foot has no natural brick repellant or attractant properties
Click to expand...
People have long known about falling objects but it took a Newton to explain the why. And even then, as in Einstein's case, it took years for his theories to be generally accepted after further demonstrations were complete. This 'climate change' seems to have taken hold with whatever science there is being promoted by people like Al Gore, or Hollywood celebrities and with any 'contrairans' being called 'deniers' or their positions being threatened or removed.

This rush to judgement on climate change hardly seems scientific at all and appears to be more about power and vast sums of money more than anything else.
 
Perotista said:
Personally, I think the good old USA is just peeing into the wind unless one can get China, India, Russia and other countries to come on board. All that we are doing is making services and good cost a whole lot more in this country while not accomplishing a dog gone thing globally.
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That's because Americans are more likely to throw money at a problem, real or perceived, than the Russians, Chinese, or most anyone else.
 
Erod said:
And all that still doesn't add up to all the cow farts.
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Take a pot and put it under the water faucet and run water into it, and set up a hose and a pump that removes water from the pot just as quickly as the faucet pours the water into the pot.

That is equilibrium.

Now start adding a teaspoon of water to the pot every few seconds. The pot will begin to fill. It will fill slowly, but it will fill because the pump removing the water cannot increase its pumping capacity.

Do you see? It does not matter that the teaspoon is adding far less water than the faucet that is pouring continuously - the pump can't handle the amount added by the teaspoons, and the teaspoons of water being constantly added is throwing the system out of equilibrium, and eventually the pot will fill and overflow.

So it goes with the climate - it does not matter that there are greater sources of CO2 and other greenhouse gases - what matters is that without our worldwide civilization's added output of CO2, the system was generally in balance except for the occasional great volcanic eruption or the sun putting out much more or much less energy. Even though the planet's natural processes can absorb that greater amount of naturally-produced CO2, it is not able to handle the added amount of CO2 that our civilization is emitting...and that, sir, is why the CO2 level is rising to a point where it hasn't been in all human history.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Grant said:
And how is this consensus arrived at? Is it 51-49, 60-40? 90-10? Is there ever any coercion on scientists to accept evidence that perhaps might not be complete. Do Grants pay a roll in their findings? Or threats?

We have accepted drugs in the past, like thalidomide, which have proven harmful. In fact we have seen scientists telling us cigarettes did no harm. Just as scientists have to be skeptical of their findings so has the public learned to be skeptical of scientists. People have long known about falling objects but it took a Newton to explain the why. And even then, as in Einstein's case, it took years for his theories to be generally accepted after further demonstrations were complete. This 'climate change' seems to have taken hold with whatever science there is being promoted by people like Al Gore, or Hollywood celebrities and with any 'contrairans' being called 'deniers' or their positions being threatened or removed.

This rush to judgement on climate change hardly seems scientific at all and appears to be more about power and vast sums of money more than anything else.
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There is no definition of consensus. But I'll tell you that the loose understanding is definitely there for AGW. Its not being questioned in the scientific literature anymore - like gravity, or the concept of dna encoding genetic information, or the germ theory of disease.
And grants play little role in directing scientific conclusions - they play a significant role in funding appropriate research though. And someone trying to fund research not supported by current science (i.e. denier stuff) will be refused because the granting bodies will regard their idea as against mainstream science. It works for every other discipline - why do you think climate science is the exception?

Scientifically, there was a question about thalidomide. If you understood the history of the drug, you'll understand that the FDA refused to approved it because the science didnt support it. No one in the US 'accepted' it. Scientists have said cigarettes caused no harm. It was the ones who were paid by the tobacco companies. Note that the climate deniers tend to get lots of funding from oil and coal companies. See the trend, dude?

The 'rush to judgement' on climate change is not a rush - its taken half a century - and the power and vast sums of money are quite parallel to the tobacco issue - the science is very clear, and entrenched interests are trying to muddy the waters as much as possible. And they rely on suckers like you to propagate their message.
 
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