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Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Its even cheaper if you just ration electricity, fuel, and population.

Are you being sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.

Most people would not settle for forced moderation, we need superior solutions, people will not tolerate anything less. We need electric cars that are just as good or better as petrol cars that derive energy from clean energy sources just as cheap as coal or ng. I can't imagine western populations being forced by the government to limit population...
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

And sadly this is what it is all about...Aside from the highly technical discussions that talk of 'excited molecules' and 'molecular attachment', what we have in the end is government controlling business, and massive redistribution through hidden taxation schemes that would, should land these scum bags in jail...So far all they are succeeding at is destroying this country.[/QUOTE

I have come to the conclusion that the U.S. can't do it alone. Unless you get every other country in the world to come on board, trying to do something about climate change yourself is useless, it is worse than peeing in the wind. If you have 180 smokers, 3 cigar and the rest cigarette with the cigar smokers being China, India and the U.S., in a room, you can't clear the room of smoke if only one of the cigar smokers quit smoking. All you have done, accomplished is to deny yourself the pleasure of a good cigar.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

The current thinking is that the climate is changing too fast right now, however life is pretty tenacious so we'll have to see.

How a Few Species Are Hacking Climate Change

We can work to slow the emission of carbon into the air decreasing the potential future effects of climate change right now. However we have to switch to alternative forms of energy for this to be feasible. It's all possible without undue burden, we just have to want to do it and put in the effort.

Climate Panel Stunner: Avoiding Climate Catastrophe Is Super Cheap -- But Only If We Act Now | ThinkProgress
The results you desire will occur on their own without any cost or Government input.
Organic oil will continue to increase in cost, as extraction becomes more difficult.
Man made fuels will continue to decrease in price, as capacity and technology improve.
At some point, the curves will cross, and people will buy the man made fuels,
because they are cheaper and better.
Organic oil will be reserved for making the more complex hydrocarbon used like plastics.
 

You have a far too high opinion of human intelligence.

We both know that there are many people on this forum who are, for whatever reason, incapable of understanding very basic concepts in physics.

You have far too low an opinon of people who disagree with you. What some alarmists style as "basic concepts of physics" includes a lot of false assumptions.

Where climate science is concerned even intelligent people who have never looked at the data or ever seriously examined the methods used to analyse it are in no position to be critical of the opinions regarding the science of those who have.

Plenty of skeptics are critical of climate science based on faulty knowledge of the science. But the vast majority of people who go along with the alarmist position are in exactly the same position with regard to their knowledge of the science.

I defy anyone to look at the models used to produce predictions of future climate and then tell us that they are likely to be accurate. They are, in fact, extremely crude.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty much all the scientists and institutions that are credible do. So once again your only position can be that they are "virtually all are corrupt around the world"... fat chance.

Only if you ignore the experts, the evidence, and the science.

For a theory or supposed evidence of a theory to be valid, it has to stand up to attempts to falisify it. That is science - science is supposed to be an open, honest, "let the chips fall where they may", pursuit of the truth.

It is only "skeptical scientists" that are actually practicing science, b/c science is about skepticism - if all efforts to falsify something prove that the theory is correct, then it is accurate to say the theory is scientifically valid - it is true. Skeptics don't have a problem with something that proves to be valid - skeptics have a problem with those things that are discredited or disproven, but are still held up to the public and lay people as being true.

Al Gore made millions on "An Incovenient Truth", and running around the globe ginning up the faithful using Michael Mann's Hockey Stick. Well, since Mann's Hockey Stick was contrary to everything known about the earth's temperature record, it stands to reason that it needed to be examined with attempts to falsify it. Did Mann offer up his data and methodology for examination and testing?? No, of course not...

As the ClimateGate emails showed, he even went so far as to say in reference to Ross Mckitrick, when Mckitirick was asking for his data, "... why should I give it to him, he just wants to disprove it"!!! They ignored FOIA requests, deleted emails and data, destroyed evidence, and conspired to confuse, frustrate, and derail the scientific process.

When Mckitrick and others finally got hold of the data - it was shown to be completely tricked up, and completely useless as science; but that information never made it to the general public. Instead, Mann, Jones, et al, got their buddies to rubber stamp it as valid - and that is what was widely trumpeted as the truth.

The problem you have there is - it was falsified. End of story, end of validity, end of it being able to be called valid science. 1 million scientists can come along and say "it's all good"; but all that need happen for it to be thrown out is for 1 scientist to prove it false.

And so it goes with all this nonsense. AGW/CC is extremely dogmatic with a harshly enforced orthodoxy. Step outside that orthodoxy, and you will be labeled a heretic, cut off from funding, prevented from publishing, denied advancement, etc. That is not science - that is corruption; and that is what the so-called scientists who are pushing this abomination are engaged in.

As has been demonstrated, 114 of 117 climate models are now out of confidence level ranges; we haven't had any warming in 17 years; there is nothing unusual about the earths weather patterns; on and on... "climate happens". Always has, always will.

The bottom line is, any true scientist is a skeptic - b/c that is the nature of science. If something survives attempts to falsify it, it should be accepted; but if something fails falsification attempts - it has to be thrown out, and it is then incumbant upon the scientist that offered up the study or theory to find another way.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Are you being sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.

Most people would not settle for forced moderation, we need superior solutions, people will not tolerate anything less. We need electric cars that are just as good or better as petrol cars that derive energy from clean energy sources just as cheap as coal or ng. I can't imagine western populations being forced by the government to limit population...

If you want to limit CO/2, you need to forcefully reduce electricity consumption, fuel consumption, and population growth( which drives increase usage of the former ).

Either you tax the crap out of what you trying to limit, or you regulate it into non-existence.

If limiting CO/2 is your stance, then pick your poison; the end game is the same.

You will never replace coal/oil/natural gas(80.65 quadrillion Btu), on an energy production efficiency scale, without force. You need to artificially reduce that total via rationing or population reductions just to give all renewable energy production a chance at keeping up with existing demand.
 
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Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

If you want to limit CO/2, you need to forcefully reduce electricity consumption, fuel consumption, and population growth( which drives increase usage of the former ).

Either you tax the crap out of what you trying to limit, or you regulate it into non-existence.

If limiting CO/2 is your stance, then pick your poison; the end game is the same.

You will never replace coal/oil/natural gas(80.65 quadrillion Btu), on an energy production efficiency scale, without force. You need to artificially reduce that total via rationing or population reductions just to give all renewable energy production a chance at keeping up with existing demand.

They already do limit electricity in 3rd world countries, especially most of Africa - that's working out well, huh??

The environmentalists are actively promoting and engaged in genocide - yet they present themselves as "humanitarians". They are amazingly arrogant, obtuse, ignorant, and dangerous - and those are the best things that can be said of them.
 
Yes, asking good questions is key to science. The rub here is asking good questions. Accusing climate scientists of silly notions on a whim with no evidence or understanding of the issue is not asking good questions, it is demonstrating ignorance.

You do realize I'm an amateur geologist, and at one point in my life I wanted to be a meteorologist and have read too much on this topic or pseudoscience to even validate any of claim of AGW...

What I have found is that a lot of these so called AGW nuts are nothing more than human haters, and the so called "scientists" that perpetuate this AGW nonsense are for the most part human haters - former members of green peace.

The scary truth is that people will believe whatever jibes in their brain or whatever ideas pander to their politics..... Truth is a non-factor when it comes to climate change and AGW.

For once in my life I would like these climate scientists (who are so damn arrogant that they believe they know everything for the most part) to stop looking at climate change and the lie of AGW and start to look at the issue from a neutral or non-partisan perspective instead of their political lens.

Presently climate change/AGW are nothing more than political issues - and these so called scientists are towing a party line and NOT doing their jobs as scientists.

A lot of these so called climate scientists should be ashamed of themselves for perpetuating a lie just so they can continue to be funded by governments. So as far as I'm concerned these so called scientists aren't scientists at all - they're propagandists.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

If you want to limit CO/2, you need to forcefully reduce electricity consumption, fuel consumption, and population growth( which drives increase usage of the former ).

Either you tax the crap out of what you trying to limit, or you regulate it into non-existence.

If limiting CO/2 is your stance, then pick your poison; the end game is the same.

You will never replace coal/oil/natural gas(80.65 quadrillion Btu), on an energy production efficiency scale, without force. You need to artificially reduce that total via rationing or population reductions just to give all renewable energy production a chance at keeping up with existing demand.
I disagree, but mostly because "never" is a very long time.
I don't think CO2 is much of an issue, but we do need to utilize our alternates to organic
hydrocarbon fuels.
When the end user cost of using the man made fuels, is less than the organic flavors,
people will choose them, it really is that simple.
It will likely happen quicker without Government influence,
because Government picking winners and losers, disrupts natural market trends.
 
You do realize I'm an amateur geologist, and at one point in my life I wanted to be a meteorologist and have read too much on this topic or pseudoscience to even validate any of claim of AGW...

What I have found is that a lot of these so called AGW nuts are nothing more than human haters, and the so called "scientists" that perpetuate this AGW nonsense are for the most part human haters - former members of green peace.

The scary truth is that people will believe whatever jibes in their brain or whatever ideas pander to their politics..... Truth is a non-factor when it comes to climate change and AGW.

For once in my life I would like these climate scientists (who are so damn arrogant that they believe they know everything for the most part) to stop looking at climate change and the lie of AGW and start to look at the issue from a neutral or non-partisan perspective instead of their political lens.

Presently climate change/AGW are nothing more than political issues - and these so called scientists are towing a party line and NOT doing their jobs as scientists.

A lot of these so called climate scientists should be ashamed of themselves for perpetuating a lie just so they can continue to be funded by governments. So as far as I'm concerned these so called scientists aren't scientists at all - they're propagandists.
I don't think I would paint all the researchers with that brush.
Many Assistant Professors, look for grants anywhere they can.
They teach graduate classes at university, on how to read the RFP,
and write a proposal that will improve your odds of winning.
Part of the prep includes looking at the Vita's of the reviewers,
and writing what you think they want to see.
If they win the grant, they do the research, and present the results
in the best light, that will lead to additional grants.
If the reviewer is part of the IPCC, or is active in Green Peace,
I think they consider that when writing up the results.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Only if you ignore the experts, the evidence, and the science.

OR, if we think for ourselves and use some common sense. You people believe these money hungry scientists the way people believed the priests in the Dark Ages.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Actually, it's very relevant to both. You don't go around telling the truth about CIA stuff, and you don't send in the Marines when it all goes to ****.

You people will say ANYTHING to cover for The Messiah...lol!
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

What? Are you telling me that raising CAFE standards, destroying our energy business, and raising taxes will not change the course of the Earth and Universe??? What kind of insanity is this??? Sir, you are truly a denier!

No, no, there will be a utopia if we can get these things done, it is just a coincidence that it also increases the size and power of government, takes liberty and freedom from the people, and concentrates power in the hands of liberal politicians.

So now we're going to blame Obama for not stopping something that is a hoax anyway? The ODS is strong with this one.

Please enjoy the cynicism. He just such an easy target .:)
 
I don't think I would paint all the researchers with that brush.
Many Assistant Professors, look for grants anywhere they can.
They teach graduate classes at university, on how to read the RFP,
and write a proposal that will improve your odds of winning.
Part of the prep includes looking at the Vita's of the reviewers,
and writing what you think they want to see.
If they win the grant, they do the research, and present the results
in the best light, that will lead to additional grants.
If the reviewer is part of the IPCC, or is active in Green Peace,
I think they consider that when writing up the results.

But the problem sill remains the same - when a scientist offers alternate theories their careers are ruined and they're outcasted from the scientific community. That is probably the biggest problem I have with how the scientific community treats the issue of climate change. The general consensus amongst these alleged scientists is that humans are responsible for climate change - and that is not only total poppycock - it's also a blatant contradiction of geology as a science within itself.

And yes - many of these radical AGW proponents are former Green Peace members - excommunicated members I might add.

I don't want to get too off topic here but the history of Green Peace is an extremely interesting story. I don't want to spoil it for you in case you have interest in researching Green Peace, but the founders actually left the organization because it became infested with anti-humanity and communist ilk in which the founders never wanted and anti-human and communism was never a strategy of Green Peace..
 
But the problem sill remains the same - when a scientist offers alternate theories their careers are ruined and they're outcasted from the scientific community. That is probably the biggest problem I have with how the scientific community treats the issue of climate change. The general consensus amongst these alleged scientists is that humans are responsible for climate change - and that is not only total poppycock - it's also a blatant contradiction of geology as a science within itself.
I agree the end result is the same, and it will be a blemish on Science for several generations.
I just cannot fault the guys too much, who are just trying to get tenure,
there are not a lot of grant choices out there.
Most just want to make a living, and get to where they can do the research they really want to do.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Only if you ignore the experts, the evidence, and the science.

Experts?

All I see are a bunch of radical activists that hide behind their "degrees" and who are unwilling to even ponder alternate ideas.

I would call them narrow-minded fools not "experts."

Real experts wouldn't be intimidated by someone challenging their "science" but the real reason these clowns er "experts" are intimidated is because every intelligent person who understands this science damn well knows these so called "experts" findings are epic bull**** and they have proven that time and time again. That is why these so called "experts" are very defensive and protective of their botched, manipulated and half-assed data.

Now, if I had a remarkable theory I would love for it to be criticized - then again I don't share the same traits with the scientific community which generally consist of competitiveness, contempt and arrogance.

Also, Stephen Hawking could come out and say that AGW (man made global warming) is epic bull**** and not one of these so called confident experts would even question him - that goes to show how utterly zombie like these alleged "experts" really are.

Now some of these "experts" are really good scientists however that doesn't mean they're not greedy, corrupt or are portraying lies to perpetuate their own politics on humanity.

BTW, the worst thing you can do is just blindly trust someone just because they have credentials that may or may not make them an "expert" on something.
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post

You have a far too high opinion of human intelligence.

We both know that there are many people on this forum who are, for whatever reason, incapable of understanding very basic concepts in physics.

You have far too low an opinon of people who disagree with you. What some alarmists style as "basic concepts of physics" includes a lot of false assumptions.

Where climate science is concerned even intelligent people who have never looked at the data or ever seriously examined the methods used to analyse it are in no position to be critical of the opinions regarding the science of those who have.

Plenty of skeptics are critical of climate science based on faulty knowledge of the science. But the vast majority of people who go along with the alarmist position are in exactly the same position with regard to their knowledge of the science.

I defy anyone to look at the models used to produce predictions of future climate and then tell us that they are likely to be accurate. They are, in fact, extremely crude.

I am referring to things like what heat energy is.

And yes both sides of the debate are carrying around those who say things with enormous confidence whilst obviously knowing virtually nothing.
 
I agree the end result is the same, and it will be a blemish on Science for several generations.
I just cannot fault the guys too much, who are just trying to get tenure,
there are not a lot of grant choices out there.
Most just want to make a living, and get to where they can do the research they really want to do.

That is another problem - tenure - is knowingly flubbing data and lying really an ethical way to get tenure..

Also, as far as I'm concerned tenure is absolute nonsense. In what other jobs do employees get "tenure." It seems to me that when a professor gets tenure he/she just goes bat**** crazy spewing all kinds of nonsense that would have otherwise have gotten him/her fired if they weren't tenured.

That is always why generally the most controversial college courses are taught by tenured faculty.

I took a course in anthropology and I can tell you this much - it was one of the most bizarre courses I have ever taken in my life - the professor (tenured) pretty much stood on a soapbox for 90 minutes demonizing everything he could think of. Oh, the clown also gave me a C for contradicting his insane rants with facts and alternative motives and ideas he was demonizing. Quite frankly I felt like I was watching Hitler at the time.

The guy wasn't teaching anything he was just ranting - I've never seen anyone in my life that hated US culture as much has he did. The guy was seriously off his meds or lost his marbles long ago, however sadly the guy couldn't be fired for his extreme views he tried to pass of as an education.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says


So, you're actually going to buy that line? Really?

The quality of thought in the alarmist community has really gone down hill. I guess they think that if they get really, really, really shrill that people will start paying attention to them. It's exactly the opposite, in fact, that is happening. The more shrill they get with their obviously over the top claims the less their credibility.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

So, you're actually going to buy that line? Really?

The quality of thought in the alarmist community has really gone down hill. I guess they think that if they get really, really, really shrill that people will start paying attention to them. It's exactly the opposite, in fact, that is happening. The more shrill they get with their obviously over the top claims the less their credibility.

I see you don't get the joke.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OR, if we think for ourselves and use some common sense. You people believe these money hungry scientists the way people believed the priests in the Dark Ages.

It's actually not supposed to have anything at all to do with who one finds trustworthy. If someone makes a scientific claim you look at their science. If you do that with climate science you find the science wanting.

Some examples:

Michael Mann's hockey stick graph was produced using faulty statistical methods. Even random data fed into his algorithm produces a hockey stick graph.

The CMIP family of climate models, the main set of models relied on by the IPCC, missed predicting global temperatures in their only prospective test. All of them missed, all of them predicted temperatures that were way too high when compared to real world data.

The same family of models doesn't even agree with each other when it comes to trying to predict anything else about the climate -- precipitation, heat flux, etc.

IPCC predicted more frequent hurricanes. They were wrong.

IPCC predicted more extreme weather -- droughts, floods, etc. They were wrong.

IPCC predicted climate refugees. No refugees.

IPCC is still predicting an acceleration in sea level rise. No acceleration.

And on and on.

If you look at the performance of climate scientists rather than the claims they make then the need for skepticism becomes obvious.

There appears to be no basis at all for any confidence in climate science as applied by the IPCC.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says


Well, some politicians and pundits want it to be - not because AGW is fact - but it allows governments to dictate in authoritarian fashion while using scare tactics. If it's not terrorism - its AGW.

The worst part is that the EU wants to use AGW as a means to create a one world government (which wont happen of course) but that isn't stopping them from escalating the lies in an attempt to guilt nations into submitting to their demands.

Another bizarre thing is that these idiot progressives somehow are trying to imply "climate change" is somehow bad and caused by humans (AGW) when in reality our climate has been changing since day one over 4.5 billion years ago.

I mean does the typical less informed individual actually believe the climate didn't change before humans (or any living animal) walked the earth or even before that?

Also, to make matters worse for the AGW nuts - every prediction they have made has never occurred. First It was "snowball earth" in the 70's and in the early 80's it was drastic global warming caused by man, and many so called climate scientists of that era predicted goofy **** like the US would be "Water World" by 2001 if we didn't destroy capitalism, humanity, business, industrialization etc....

Hell, random no-name psychics are more accurate when it comes to predicting the future than these so called climate experts.... Hell, the weatherman can even predict the weather 2 weeks in advance - yet these global warming nuts are making 20-year predictions (which never come to fruition).
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

So, you're actually going to buy that line? Really?

The quality of thought in the alarmist community has really gone down hill. I guess they think that if they get really, really, really shrill that people will start paying attention to them. It's exactly the opposite, in fact, that is happening. The more shrill they get with their obviously over the top claims the less their credibility.

Climate change will eventually lead to migration at some point, however not in our generation or even in the next 500 or so years.

The real threat to humanity is via an asteroid/meteor strike, volcano or war - not climate change.

Humans/animals have been dealing with changes in climate since their/our inception. Why do people believe the "natives" actually crossed the sea bridge known today as the Bering Strait? do people think they were just curious and migrated for no reason? There is also another controversial theory that Europeans were here before the "natives" which is also believed to be due to climate hence lack of food.

Either way we cannot control nature and our worlds natural process. I think if people only knew the 4.5 billion year history of the earth they would think twice about what they perceive as climate change being dangerous to humanity.

Humans are extremely resilient and there are only two things that can happen a) humans will adapt which is one of our better traits as a species or b) we all drown in waterwrold because we are too stupid or arrogant to migrate. But like I said this is hundreds or thousands of years down the road, and quite frankly I highly doubt the "waterworld" theory considering we have ice ages and I'm certain one will return before we live in a waterworld.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Clearly you have avoided this problem almost entirely.

Not at all. You merely said nothing that changed the science.
 
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