• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S. Supreme Court declines new gun regulations challenge

Paxaeon said:
`
In my humble opinion; SCOTUS dodged the issue because a decision either way, will cause civil unrest, especially if it ruled against the gun nuts.
Click to expand...
In the event of a civil unrest, one side will be armed, while the other is not. I wonder who would win, then. Let's ask Native Americans how easy it is to fight an armed force with spears and bows given that it worked out for them so well.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
With 50 to 50K different laws concerning carrying a handgun, interstate travel would be a hit and miss affair. Unlike committing a traffic violation, like not turning on your headlights when operating your wipers (MD law), one may easily face felony charges for simply not knowing how moronic NJ laws are while traveling down I-95. I have encountered much confusion as to how to legally ride a motorcycle while carrying a handgun - it has no locked compartment not accessible to the operator.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to begin to argue that all regulation is good, clear, and needed.. because it's not. And it can and should be MUCH better.
 
Henrin said:
There is little doubt that requiring a permit is a violation of the second amendment.
Click to expand...

Then you and the NRA ought to challenge the permit system in court. it has for a very long time puzzled me that the ardent 2nd A 'patriots' and our bastion of 2nd amendment rights- the NRA- seem content to rant online, send me a constant barrage of fearmongering propaganda and buy up a bevy of K-Street 3K suits to lobby the 'cowards' in congress instead of taking this to the Supreme Court.

Way I see it, the ardent 2nd A's know they are on the extreme edge and reasonable limits are exactly what the Supreme Court would call Concealed Carry permits. I believe the Supreme Court tipped it's hand on the issue and the NRA balked.

Now before the ardent 2nd A 'patriots' scream a blue streak... I believe it took far too long for Heller and McDonald (home defense should be allowed for ALL citizens, even felons once they are off parole/probation)... for all the NRA screams with each mass mailing for donations they snail's pace they are on MIGHT have the CCW issue before a court in my great grand kid's time. :doh
 
Mithros said:
I'm not going to begin to argue that all regulation is good, clear, and needed.. because it's not. And it can and should be MUCH better.
Click to expand...

That is a wonderful way of saying absolutely nothing. This is a matter of treating what many (legitimately?) feel is a constitutional right as a felony - we all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Do you also think modest amounts of slavery (they will call it privatization of community service, of course) are OK in local jurisdictions? How about laws that bend the Miranda rights just a tad?
 
notquiteright said:
Then you and the NRA ought to challenge the permit system in court. it has for a very long time puzzled me that the ardent 2nd A 'patriots' and our bastion of 2nd amendment rights- the NRA- seem content to rant online, send me a constant barrage of fearmongering propaganda and buy up a bevy of K-Street 3K suits to lobby the 'cowards' in congress instead of taking this to the Supreme Court.

Way I see it, the ardent 2nd A's know they are on the extreme edge and reasonable limits are exactly what the Supreme Court would call Concealed Carry permits. I believe the Supreme Court tipped it's hand on the issue and the NRA balked.

Now before the ardent 2nd A 'patriots' scream a blue streak... I believe it took far too long for Heller and McDonald (home defense should be allowed for ALL citizens, even felons once they are off parole/probation)... for all the NRA screams with each mass mailing for donations they snail's pace they are on MIGHT have the CCW issue before a court in my great grand kid's time. :doh
Click to expand...

Here is the rub on that plan; in order to have "standing" for appeal then you have to break a law, get convicted and sentenced. That is no small matter when a felony charge is involved and our court appeals process can take years only to wind up, like this case, with the SCOTUS simply bowing out. The NRA is an odd bunch, when it comes to 2A rights, since they seem to like having CCW permit/CHL laws that mandate passing their training programs as a prerequisite.

http://www.yourchltexas.net/nra-pistol-course.html
 
ttwtt78640 said:
With 50 to 50K different laws concerning carrying a handgun, interstate travel would be a hit and miss affair. Unlike committing a traffic violation, like not turning on your headlights when operating your wipers (MD law), one may easily face felony charges for simply not knowing how moronic NJ laws are while traveling down I-95. I have encountered much confusion as to how to legally ride a motorcycle while carrying a handgun - it has no locked compartment not accessible to the operator.
Click to expand...

Actually the law says if the vehicle doesn't have a trunk the weapon maybe secured anyplace but the glove box or console. (line G of the same section)

A very easy to do interwebz search has NJ bikers taking pistols to and from the range in lockable saddle bags- empty pistol in one, ammo in the other. but the law says secured not locked.

Now just where did you have to go that you had to go through Jersey???
 
notquiteright said:
Actually the law says if the vehicle doesn't have a trunk the weapon maybe secured anyplace but the glove box or console. (line G of the same section)

A very easy to do interwebz search has NJ bikers taking pistols to and from the range in lockable saddle bags- empty pistol in one, ammo in the other. but the law says secured not locked.

Now just where did you have to go that you had to go through Jersey???
Click to expand...

Gun and drug running to NY, of course. ;)
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Here is the rub on that plan; in order to have "standing" for appeal then you have to break a law, get convicted and sentenced. That is no small matter when a felony charge is involved and our court appeals process can take years only to wind up, like this case, with the SCOTUS simply bowing out. The NRA is an odd bunch, when it comes to 2A rights, since they seem to like having CCW permit/CHL laws that mandate passing their training programs as a prerequisite.

NRA Basic Pistol Course - Texas Concealed Handgun Classes Temple, Troy,  Belton, Salado, Killeen Harker Heights areas
Click to expand...

That's what they did here in Seattle when they tried to make it illegal to carry in community centers and playgrounds. A lawyer notified the media and the community center. Then he entered the community center. When he was asked to leave (if he did not he would have been charged with trespassing)....he complied but was then able to take it to court. Seattle lost.

But trespassing is not a felony and he wasnt risking his gun rights.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Here is the rub on that plan; in order to have "standing" for appeal then you have to break a law, get convicted and sentenced. That is no small matter when a felony charge is involved and our court appeals process can take years only to wind up, like this case, with the SCOTUS simply bowing out. The NRA is an odd bunch, when it comes to 2A rights, since they seem to like having CCW permit/CHL laws that mandate passing their training programs as a prerequisite.
Click to expand...

Ahhh the faint hearted 'patriot'. I guess there are Hellers and McDonalds out there- just very few and far between... (damn glad the original Patriots were willing to risk more than jail time back in the day.... ain't you????)

But in the case of Drake vs Jerejian no one was arrested, no one is facing a felony conviction. Four Citizens of NJ were denied permits to carry and they are suing for the right to carry. So none of these people are now convicted felons because the Supreme Court left then 'high and dry'....

Dunno what state you are referring to about the NRA and CCW. Oklahoma certainly doesn't require you passing an NRA class for concealed carry.
 
notquiteright said:
Ahhh the faint hearted 'patriot'. I guess there are Hellers and McDonalds out there- just very few and far between... (damn glad the original Patriots were willing to risk more than jail time back in the day.... ain't you????)

But in the case of Drake vs Jerejian no one was arrested, no one is facing a felony conviction. Four Citizens of NJ were denied permits to carry and they are suing for the right to carry. So none of these people are now convicted felons because the Supreme Court left then 'high and dry'....

Dunno what state you are referring to about the NRA and CCW. Oklahoma certainly doesn't require you passing an NRA class for concealed carry.
Click to expand...

Texas. The link was a clue, but maybe you replied before I added it.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Texas. The link was a clue, but maybe you replied before I added it.
Click to expand...

Yeah I saw that but you are incorrect... the NRA has not 'mandated' anything. They are one of hundreds of places a citizen of the Grand and Glorious state many call Texas and a few call home can take the CCW course. I know several LE types in Wichita Falls Tx who teach and certify folks for CCW without so much a a nod to the NRA.

you try and make it out as the NRA has a lock on ccw classes when the fact is the NRA is a small part of a large group of certified instructors.
 
notquiteright said:
Yeah I saw that but you are incorrect... the NRA has not 'mandated' anything. They are one of hundreds of places a citizen of the Grand and Glorious state many call Texas and a few call home can take the CCW course. I know several LE types in Wichita Falls Tx who teach and certify folks for CCW without so much a a nod to the NRA.

you try and make it out as the NRA has a lock on ccw classes when the fact is the NRA is a small part of a large group of certified instructors.
Click to expand...

Not that large - they are listed first out of four.

To qualify for the DPS class you must document firearm instructor certification through the National Rifle Association, TCLEOSE, Security Officer training, or the military.
Click to expand...

TCHA: Becoming an Instructor
 
`
Well, they lost their appeal by virtue of the fact that SCOTUS would not hear the case, which throws the onus back to the states to construct better laws.
 
danarhea said:
'Ya know, I am kind of in the middle regarding this issue. I do feel that background checks should be necessary so that criminals and crazy people cannot legally purchase a gun. However, once passing a background check, I very strongly feel that carrying a gun is a constitutional right, per the second amendment. I believe the members of the Supreme Court are being cowards in avoiding this issue. And since this is the Roberts court, I am somewhat surprised, not to mention deeply disappointed.

Discussion?

Article is here.
Click to expand...

Only, well regulated Militias of the People enjoy literal recourse to not be Infringed, when keeping and bear Arms for their State or the Union.
 
Lursa said:
I'm a liberal Democrat, bless your heart. And I've participated in several discussions on this on gun forums and the bold statement is factual.

Here's the only study that anyone came up with, coicidentally, quite local:

WA state requires no training at all and is a SHall-issue state.
OR requires training and is a May-issue state.

WA has a larger population and a larger urban population. (and a higher number of permits)
OR has a higher number of gun-related accidents and incidents.

This isnt about crime...crime has nothing to do with permits or training.
Click to expand...

I never mentioned crime. A gun is a deadly machine, deadly machines in public should require permits that require proof of knowledge of safety, laws, rules, and ability to use the machine. "Well regulated" militia, ie regulations are not only allowed but required. And don't give me any bull**** about supposedly "well regulated" not meaning well regulated.

Regardless of your usual slant. To decry a course prior to a CCW permit is idiotic and the view of the extreme right wing nutjobs.
 
Summerwind said:
I never mentioned crime. A gun is a deadly machine, deadly machines in public should require permits that require proof of knowledge of safety, laws, rules, and ability to use the machine. "Well regulated" militia, ie regulations are not only allowed but required. And don't give me any bull**** about supposedly "well regulated" not meaning well regulated.

Regardless of your usual slant. To decry a course prior to a CCW permit is idiotic and the view of the extreme right wing nutjobs.
Click to expand...

It's not bull****, maybe you should check history. Regulated referred to training and preparation (supplies).

And I never ever said a course prior to a CCW is idiotic...try to control yourself. I said that there is no evidence that it makes any difference in gun accidents or incidents. It has not shown more OR less effective in states with or without it.

As for permits to own guns? No, that implies *permission,* the opposite of the 2A. And I dont need a permit for my chain saw. Nor training.
 
Why should the commanders in chief of that which is enumerated as necessary to the security of a free State, get a free pass?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Not that large - they are listed first out of four.
Click to expand...

If you go to dps.texas.gov you see question 20 makes ZERO mention of the NRA and simply says CHL Instructor certified by DPS.

Question 43 lists the ways to be a certified instructor- I note the NRA is listed third, below Law Enforcement Instructor, Private security Instructor, the NRA and finally a private school that uses approved national standards for Instructors with the graduate engaged in teaching students 'regularly'. No way in Hail does a CHL Instructor have to be multiple certified.

No where does it say the Instructor MUST be NRA or the class MUST be run for/by the NRA. I have worked classes in Texas- the NRA was nooooo place to be seen.
 
Lursa said:
It's not bull****, maybe you should check history. Regulated referred to training and preparation (supplies). And I never ever said a course prior to a CCW is idiotic...try to control yourself. I said that there is no evidence that it makes any difference in gun accidents or incidents. It has not shown more OR less effective in states with or without it. As for permits to own guns? No, that implies *permission,* the opposite of the 2A. And I dont need a permit for my chain saw. Nor training.
Click to expand...
Actually to use a chain saw in public, yes you do. Sorry. On your property, not so much. "Training and preparation" which is what the required course is. Again, nothing against the 2nd Amendment.
 
Summerwind said:
Actually to use a chain saw in public, yes you do. Sorry. On your property, not so much. "Training and preparation" which is what the required course is. Again, nothing against the 2nd Amendment.
Click to expand...

I need a permit to use my chain saw on DNR land? At my neighbors'? Out on our rural road to move a tree? Ruh-oh. I better check on that. Actually I need a permit for the wood on the DNR land.
 
Paxaeon said:
`
That's one popular position to take but that only adds a third reason why SCOTUS wisely stayed away....let the legislative branch do their job.
Click to expand...

So what exactly do you think the job of the SCOTUS is?
 
Lursa said:
I need a permit to use my chain saw on DNR land? At my neighbors'? Out on our rural road to move a tree? Ruh-oh. I better check on that. Actually I need a permit for the wood on the DNR land.
Click to expand...

No you don't. Just take the wood, and when the DNR attempts to confiscate that wood from you, call FOX News, who can put it on the air, resulting in hundreds of militia guys coming over and raising hell, then the government lets you keep the wood.

There's a form for that, I think. :mrgreen:
 
Henrin said:
I'm curious how many people knew how to shoot and handle a gun before they got their training approved by the state? I was taught by my father that was a sniper in the military, but apparently his training is inferior to the states. It reminds me of child care providers being told they aren't experts in how to do their job even if they have been doing it for thirty years, but this person that has been doing their job for a week is. It's pretty goddamn insulting, imho.
Click to expand...

I also received the best firearm training I ever acquired from my father. I was under his watchful eye from age 6 until being allowed to go out on my own with a firearm at about age 11. By then handling a firearm safely was second nature to me, and he knew it.
 
Μολὼν λαβέ;1063239592 said:
So what exactly do you think the job of the SCOTUS is?
Click to expand...

I have been watching the ways of CONs for some time now. It seems when the Supreme Courts hands down a ruling CONs like they cheer and cry "FREEDOM"

When the Supreme Courts hands down a decision CONs don't like it is "Un-elected Officials legislating from the bench!" ;)

The Supreme Court has let a lower court ruling stand, thus reserving the right to address the issue at a later date.

Personally I think the best course of action is to rework the law on concealed carry at the state level. I don't think 2nd A supporters really want to push the issue of just what is prohibition- like Heller and McDonald and what is acceptable restrictions- shall issue, may issue, need to prove a reason for issue.

Yeah I know the ardent 2nd A guys feel ANY restriction is Unconstitutional, but there are many people who feel same sex marriage should never be allowed. Both ends of the restriction scale... both impractical.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom