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Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting [W:93:217]

Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

24107 said:
do you think those 3 would vote against this too?
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I don't know. How is this relevant?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

TheNextEra said:
I somehow doubt you would agree to have several prayers of different religions before a meeting and only "approve" of Christian prayers being forced on everyone to hear. So please, don't try and pretend this is a 1st amendment issue for you. This is a "We want to cram our CHRISTIAN prayers down people's throats" concern.
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Nonsense. Im an atheist and the prayers of others are meaningless to me. If certain people want to huddle together and say a few words that have some sort of meaning to them before a meeting why the hell should I care?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

calamity said:
Church is for prayer; City council meeting not so much.

SCOTUS has a right wing bias regarding "Free speech", as is evidenced by this.
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Notice how the liberals are...well, more liberal in their interpretation of Free Speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/u...ech-often-means-speech-i-agree-with.html?_r=1
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You don't get to decide how a town conducts meetings. The people of that meeting want to pray before the meeting how does that really harm you?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Removable Mind said:
So if there was a Satanic Priest at a public meeting and the Satanist wanted equal time to do a Satanic prayer. Would that be okay?
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If the majority of the people attending wanted time for that and acted within state laws (no sacrifices or anything like that) I don't imagine that most people would care.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

WTF why cant people just silently pray to themselves?

I hope that no one minds that I will be cranking Slayer during their little prayer exhibitionism.

 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Kreton said:
You don't get to decide how a town conducts meetings. The people of that meeting want to pray before the meeting how does that really harm you?
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Slippery slope. I prefer a secular society. Hence, any public prayer in a public meeting harms me. You want to pray, keep it in the church or your own home--hell pray in the ****ing park for all I care, but don't force the whole town to bear your bull****.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

calamity said:
Slippery slope. I prefer a secular society. Hence, any public prayer in a public meeting harms me. You want to pray, keep it in the church or your own home--hell pray in the ****ing park for all I care, but don't force the whole town to bear your bull****.
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How are you harmed by prayer before a public meeting? :eek:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

calamity said:
Slippery slope. I prefer a secular society. Hence, any public prayer in a public meeting harms me. You want to pray, keep it in the church or your own home--hell pray in the ****ing park for all I care, but don't force the whole town to bear your bull****.
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that is your preference that doesn't mean you get to mandate that to other people and the SCOTUS upheld that.
the prayers happen before the meeting. not during the meeting. so if you don't want to hear them then show up exactly on time or a few minutes after.

wow calling other peoples religious views bull**** is a bit bigotted don't you think? aren't you one that rants and rails against bigots to?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

ludin said:
that is your preference that doesn't mean you get to mandate that to other people and the SCOTUS upheld that.
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SCOTUS is biased. The article I posted proved that. And, that is a a shame because the biased judges voted to approve an unconstitutional thing.

the prayers happen before the meeting. not during the meeting. so if you don't want to hear them then show up exactly on time or a few minutes after.

wow calling other peoples religious views bull**** is a bit bigotted don't you think? aren't you one that rants and rails against bigots to?
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Religious views by definition are bull****, after all, none of them can be proved to be real. Hence...bull****.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Kreton said:
If the majority of the people attending wanted time for that and acted within state laws (no sacrifices or anything like that) I don't imagine that most people would care.
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Fantastic. All is good. Wellll, maybe, maybe not.

I'm guessing that a Satanic Priest standing up in a meeting asking for equal time during a public meeting is likely to freak more people out than I think you just implied. Let's put it this way. I'd love to see the expressions on people's faces at that particular moment.

My stance is:

Wanna pray? Go to church and pray among and with one's religious peers. Wanna pray? Fire away, inside one's mind anytime or anyplace. If prayers don't work when they are done so in silences...then maybe people are praying to the wrong deity. Maybe a deity doesn't want to answer a prayer or think that it fits the big plan.

Have public business that needs to be remedied? Go to a meeting with the agenda to resolve a public problem. Public debate helps resolve issues, not prayer.

In other words, what is the end game by saying a prayer at a public meeting? Fellowship maybe? What about those who don't subscribe to, or is affiliated with religion? Do those who subscribe to minority religions get their form of prayers invoked in a public meeting? Like say should the meeting include those who want to spread a prayer blanket, get on their knees, face the west, and bow in prayer?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

calamity said:
SCOTUS is biased. The article I posted proved that. And, that is a a shame because the biased judges voted to approve an unconstitutional thing.
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it is not unconstitutoinal to pray BEFORE a meeting starts. after the meeting starts and you might have an argument. you claiming they are bias is an opinion since well you disagree with their ruling.

Religious views by definition are bull****, after all, none of them can be proved to be real. Hence...bull****.
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so you are a religious bigot then. funny how you rail on other people being bigots and such and you are one yourself.
PS your opinion is not a fact and has no weight. you are just intolerant of other peoples religious views.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Removable Mind said:
Fantastic. All is good. Wellll, maybe, maybe not.

I'm guessing that a Satanic Priest standing up in a meeting asking for equal time during a public meeting is likely to freak more people out than I think you just implied. Let's put it this way. I'd love to see the expressions on people's faces at that particular moment.

My stance is:

Wanna pray? Go to church and pray among and with one's religious peers. Wanna pray? Fire away, inside one's mind anytime or anyplace. If prayers don't work when they are done so in silences...then maybe people are praying to the wrong deity. Maybe a deity doesn't want to answer a prayer or think that it fits the big plan.

Have public business that needs to be remedied? Go to a meeting with the agenda to resolve a public problem. Public debate helps resolve issues, not prayer.

In other words, what is the end game by saying a prayer at a public meeting? Fellowship maybe? What about those who don't subscribe to, or is affiliated with religion? Do those who subscribe to minority religions get their form of prayers invoked in a public meeting? Like say should the meeting include those who want to spread a prayer blanket, get on their knees, face the west, and bow in prayer?
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it isn't during the meeting it is BEFORE the meeting.

sorry but the constitution doesn't limit you on where and when you can pray. what it does say is that government can't tell you when and where to pray.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

`
I consider the political ritual of saying a religious invocation before a meeting to be the highest form of hypocrisy, bar none. I'm not so opposed to it as disgusted by it. They call upon their own deity to bless a meeting that is already rife with lies.

This is something that the voters should stop on the local level, rather than having a court decide.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

ludin said:
it is not unconstitutoinal to pray BEFORE a meeting starts. after the meeting starts and you might have an argument. you claiming they are bias is an opinion since well you disagree with their ruling.
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The NYT article showed how the Left leaning justices ruled much more evenly on free speech issues than the Right Leaning ones. That suggest they judges on the Right are biased, by definition.



so you are a religious bigot then. funny how you rail on other people being bigots and such and you are one yourself.
PS your opinion is not a fact and has no weight. you are just intolerant of other peoples religious views.
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How can I be biased when I have no qualms with people practicing their religion in church or in private? It's the public displays of religion which I spurn. BTW: Did not your Christ warn his followers against such displays of pretense?


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:1-34&version=ESV

6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

The Lord's Prayer

5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
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Every day I see that the "Christians" are doing anything and everything except following the teachings of their Christ.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

ludin said:
it isn't during the meeting it is BEFORE the meeting.

sorry but the constitution doesn't limit you on where and when you can pray. what it does say is that government can't tell you when and where to pray.
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Ah...So it's a prayer meeting before the public meeting? In other words, before the meeting is called into business the prayer is said?

Hmmmmm,

A small New York town’s practice of opening its government meetings with a prayer does not violate the constitutional separation of church and state, a sharply divided Supreme Court ruled Monday, in a decision that both sides said could signal a major shift in the role of religion in the public square.
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I think the meeting has been called into business...then the prayer is said.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Removable Mind said:
So if there was a Satanic Priest at a public meeting and the Satanist wanted equal time to do a Satanic prayer. Would that be okay?
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Satanic Priest don't lead prayers, they lead meditations and view prayer as following dogma. Good try though. But as Kreton said and you ignored, if a Satanic Priest wants to arrive before a meeting to lead a meditation and all the state laws are followed? It is hard to imagine anyone would really mind. I'd require Mr. Hail Satan to actually attend the meeting though. In order to discourage grand standers and types there to disrupt the meeting with their "meditation/prayer" who have no interest in the meeting itself.

As to the rest of your questions, you know it is 2014 right? Or do you really think none of this has come up before or none of your questions have ever been addressed? Or you just need posters at an internet message board to answer them for you? :confused:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

So many people outraged and disgusted by others expressing one of the core freedoms of this country. I guess for some freedom only counts if they agree with what is being expressed, which makes it the opposite of free.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Moderator's Warning:
The baiting and flaming in this thread needs to stop and people need to stick closely to the topic going forward. Moon, Calamity, and Grim...you three specifically better make note of this warning
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Moon said:
So many people outraged and disgusted by others expressing one of the core freedoms of this country. I guess for some freedom only counts if they agree with what is being expressed, which makes it the opposite of free.
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Define "harm".
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Risky Thicket said:
Define "harm".
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Define "harm" would be a good question to ask the person who claimed they would be harmed by prayer before a meeting. That poster was calamity and calamity took the fifth on that question.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Risky Thicket said:
Define "harm".
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And that's definitely the problem. Personal definitions of harm? Legal definitions of harm? Etc.

Calamity, for example, feels that a public prayer in a public meeting "harms" him simply because he desires a secular society. So similarly, I could see Moon feeling that a Public Official engaging in sexual actions with a subordinate while married "harms" him simply becasue he desires a moral and ethical society.

Then again, those would seemingly be personal definitions largely based upon opinion, as opposed to legal definitions. They would also be personal definitions that I could very easily see the majority of people disagreeing with as it relates to "harm".

As it relates to this case, I'm unsure how much "harm" really played in. I need to read the actual ruling on it. However, I don't think it's a black and white notion that a prayer prior to a local public meeting, even if it happens to be towards a specific religion, is inherently the establishment of a state religion or a tangible push in that direction. I would imagine that if it was actually an official part of the proceedings OR if prayers of other religions in a similar situation were denied then it'd be more clearly problematic.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Risky Thicket said:
Define "harm".
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That would be difficult since I don't see anyone could be harmed. If you feel otherwise, I'd love to see your definition.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Moon said:
So many people outraged and disgusted by others expressing one of the core freedoms of this country. I guess for some freedom only counts if they agree with what is being expressed, which makes it the opposite of free.
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`
Expressing words of love for your country, like the kind that would make you unfaithful to your wife, are meaningless.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Paxaeon said:
`
Expressing words of love for your country, like the kind that would make you unfaithful to your wife, are meaningless.
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In your view, perhaps. That doesn't negate the fact that people do, and should, have the freedom to say it whether you agree or not.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Paxaeon said:
`
Expressing words of love for your country, like the kind that would make you unfaithful to your wife, are meaningless.
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You just replied to a post that said nothing about expressing love. The post you replied to said: So many people outraged and disgusted by others expressing one of the core freedoms of this country.

So your reply to something not said, well it is pretty meaningless.
 
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