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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No churches, nor religions own marriages. They don't own the word or its definition. The secular government can be just as involved and even use the word marriage as churches/religions are. My marriage is pretty much secular and yet I refuse to call it anything but a marriage eventhough we did not go through a religious entity for it.
    Marriage was always a religious ritual.... Give me an example of when it wasn't beyond present governments - which BTW, in those circumstances marriage is only symbolic or subjective - when in reality to the government marriage is noting but a way to tax...

    In religion marriage has a meaning and in some religions it's a sacrament, but with the government it's just taxes and a petty attempt to legitimize same-sex couples...

    If anything the government is merely mocking homosexuals and they're doing so for their own gain ($$$$$).

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Marriage was always a religious ritual.... Give me an example of when it wasn't beyond present governments - which BTW, in those circumstances marriage is only symbolic or subjective - when in reality to the government marriage is noting but a way to tax...

    In religion marriage has a meaning and in some religions it's a sacrament, but with the government it's just taxes and a petty attempt to legitimize same-sex couples...

    If anything the government is merely mocking homosexuals and they're doing so for their own gain ($$$$$).
    Well, since atheism is a newer thing in the whole scheme of the human race, that would be hard to do. Since most people had religion in the past, marriage was tied into the religion. I feel that since so many religions have marriage, that goes to prove that it is a human trait to pair with a person or persons for a long time and want to show the community that their pairing. As far as legal marriage, their is numerous advantages to marriage and makes life a lot easier. The government doesnt get more taxes because of marriage, they get less so their isnt a tax advantage for the government.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No churches, nor religions own marriages. They don't own the word or its definition. The secular government can be just as involved and even use the word marriage as churches/religions are. My marriage is pretty much secular and yet I refuse to call it anything but a marriage eventhough we did not go through a religious entity for it.
    I suppose governments can be involved, however they shouldn't be considering the nature of "marriage" which the government overlooks.

    The real question is that - are you married by the church or are you married by the state. Those are drastically two different ideas as far as I see it as a Catholic.

    When Catholics get married they're bound in a union by God and not the state..

    With all that said civil unions are NOT marriage - they're civil unions (which the term bluntly implies).

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Marriage was always a religious ritual.... Give me an example of when it wasn't beyond present governments - which BTW, in those circumstances marriage is only symbolic or subjective - when in reality to the government marriage is noting but a way to tax...

    In religion marriage has a meaning and in some religions it's a sacrament, but with the government it's just taxes and a petty attempt to legitimize same-sex couples...

    If anything the government is merely mocking homosexuals and they're doing so for their own gain ($$$$$).
    In many cultures, including early European cultures, the church had no place in marriage. People simply got married. They basically lived together as married. Most of the time their parents/family had a say in it. And the church (Christian/Catholic both) stayed out of it until around the 11th or 12th Century (I've seen either claimed, but really not much earlier that they came completely involved).

    13 Facts on the History of Marriage | LiveScience

    7. State or church?

    Marriages in the West were originally contracts between the families of two partners, with the Catholic Church and the state staying out of it. In 1215, the Catholic Church decreed that partners had to publicly post banns, or notices of an impending marriage in a local parish, to cut down on the frequency of invalid marriages (the Church eliminated that requirement in the 1980s). Still, until the 1500s, the Church accepted a couple's word that they had exchanged marriage vows, with no witnesses or corroborating evidence needed.
    The Origin of Marriage (And the Evolution of Divorce) | Dollars and Sex | Big Think

    BBC News - Ten key moments in the history of marriage

    The book formed the foundation for the Church's marriage policies in the 12th Century and "set out the rules for marriage and sexuality in a changing social environment", says historian Joanne Bailey of Oxford Brookes University.
    There's more, but this is a start. And this is mainly focusing on European/Western marriage basis. This doesn't include other parts of the world, which all have marriage and again mostly formed as ways to join families (Chinese would even marry dead children to either living or sometimes even other dead children just to make family alliances "the old fashion way").
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I suppose governments can be involved, however they shouldn't be considering the nature of "marriage" which the government overlooks.

    The real question is that - are you married by the church or are you married by the state. Those are drastically two different ideas as far as I see it as a Catholic.

    When Catholics get married they're bound in a union by God and not the state..

    With all that said civil unions are NOT marriage - they're civil unions (which the term bluntly implies).
    Actually, they are simply separate parts of a marriage that any people may or may not have. I have a personal marriage (this involves my agreement to commit to my husband, our love, our goals for the future, basically anything that we feel is important to our marriage but that has nothing to do with the law) and a public marriage (this would include the marriage license, ensuring the military and other employment entities know about my legal spouse, laws pertaining to divorce, children, death, taxes, signing for each other, or any other law that deals with marriage/spouses or even inlaws). Both parts are important to my marriage, but still two separate things in my marriage. For many people, religion is included in that "personal marriage" area because your religious marriage is purely part of your personal marriage and has little to nothing to do with the law.

    And any couple can have one of these marriage parts without having the other.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    A little more on marriages and where they came from (and how they did not always involve religion, in most places, at least not as a requirement or primary participant.

    https://theweek.com/article/index/22...over-centuries

    In ancient Rome, marriage was a civil affair governed by imperial law. But when the empire collapsed, in the 5th century, church courts took over and elevated marriage to a holy union. As the church's power grew through the Middle Ages, so did its influence over marriage. In 1215, marriage was declared one of the church's seven sacraments, alongside rites like baptism and penance. But it was only in the 16th century that the church decreed that weddings be performed in public, by a priest, and before witnesses.
    Most common people marriages did not need/require clergy even within the time between the fall of the Roman Empire and about the 12th Century. They simply claimed they were married, and might have had a community ceremony/celebration (their parents may have worked out the deal or even just the groom and the bride's father).

    The Real Marriage Revolution | Origins: Current Events in Historical Perspective

    Some societies have recognized marriages that didn't even unite two live human beings. In China and the Sudan, when two sets of parents wanted to forge closer family ties through marriage, but no living spouse was available, they sometimes married off a child to the "ghost" of a dead son or daughter of the other family. Among the Bella Coola and Kwakiutl native societies of the Pacific Northwest, when two families wished to establish the trading ties that went with becoming in-laws but didn't have two sets of marriageable children available, they might draw up a marriage contract between a son or daughter and a dog belonging to the desired in-laws.
    History of Marriage

    The notion of marriage as a sacrament and not just a contract can be traced St. Paul who compared the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ and his church (Eph. v, 23-32).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    In many cultures, including early European cultures, the church had no place in marriage. People simply got married. They basically lived together as married. Most of the time their parents/family had a say in it. And the church (Christian/Catholic both) stayed out of it until around the 11th or 12th Century (I've seen either claimed, but really not much earlier that they came completely involved).

    13 Facts on the History of Marriage | LiveScience



    The Origin of Marriage (And the Evolution of Divorce) | Dollars and Sex | Big Think

    BBC News - Ten key moments in the history of marriage



    There's more, but this is a start. And this is mainly focusing on European/Western marriage basis. This doesn't include other parts of the world, which all have marriage and again mostly formed as ways to join families (Chinese would even marry dead children to either living or sometimes even other dead children just to make family alliances "the old fashion way").
    The fundamental problem you have is with God - or better yet - Christianity... Now one does not need to have faith in Jesus or Christianity to understand that marriage is a sacred institution. Marriage was a sacred bond way before Christianity was considered a "mainstream religion."

    So, I really don't understand at what you're getting at - because to me it seems you believe that I believe Christianity is/was the only non-government endorsed religion - as if I'm claiming Christians own the concept of marriage.

    I would love to expand more on the history of "marriage" but that would take a book, and I don't have the time nor do I want to.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The fundamental problem you have is with God - or better yet - Christianity... Now one does not need to have faith in Jesus or Christianity to understand that marriage is a sacred institution. Marriage was a sacred bond way before Christianity was considered a "mainstream religion."

    So, I really don't understand at what you're getting at - because to me it seems you believe that I believe Christianity is/was the only non-government endorsed religion - as if I'm claiming Christians own the concept of marriage.

    I would love to expand more on the history of "marriage" but that would take a book, and I don't have the time nor do I want to.
    No, it isn't. There is no disconnect here.

    First, you cannot prove that God exists so you cannot claim that God invented marriage as an absolute fact, only your opinion.

    Second, even if God made "marriage", it would still not necessitate religion be involved (in fact, it I have shown that it really wasn't in many places).

    And last, I'm not saying anything about Christianity alone. In fact, I've said multiple times, no religion nor all of them combined own marriage. Marriage is not just a religious thing, nor did religions invent marriage, not as a concept.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The problem is in the previous section, the language is clear about 'man and woman' or 'husband and wife' but the penalty section you referenced says "any couple" and "marries." Well, any couple is obviously broad enough to include same sex couples, and 'marries' isn't defined. In the previous section the law says when ceremonial 'marriages' can happen - only after a license is obtained.

    The bottom line is the drafting of this whole section is a mess, and it's far from clear that the laws against a non-binding church 'marriage' of SS couples by someone authorized to perform binding marriage ceremonies is legal. It certainly would NOT be legal for man/woman ceremonies, but you're asserting that it would be legal for same sex couples by omission, and despite the term "any couple."
    Marriage is defined under Article I as being between consenting male and female persons who may lawfully enter marriage. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there are "laws against a non-binding church marriage" - I see no evidence of anything of the sort, or of any requirement that a license must first be obtained before conducting a ceremony that holds no legal significance.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    So if it's such an essential counterpoint that technically heterosexuals can't marry same sex either, go out there and marry the same sex and prove it. Oh, you don't want to? Why is that i wonder...

    It doesn't matter anyway. Cause either way you look at it, people can marry opposite sex but not same sex. That's equal protection violation. Or heteros can marry but not homosexuals. Again equal protection

    Or just look at the ****ing motive which is "screw homos"
    You're reading way too much into what was a simple statement of fact.

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