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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    It implies that sodomy is morally acceptable, thus negatively impacting public morality (since the service is public).
    Absurd argument. Legal does not equate to morally acceptable. And if you're going off that your argument is really flawed because regardless if SSM is legalized homosexuality is legal.

    You lost

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    It implies that sodomy is morally acceptable, thus negatively impacting public morality (since the service is public).
    Since morals are subjective, individual beliefs of what is right and wrong, it is acceptable. The decision in Lawrence made it "acceptable", at least as far as the law and the majority of the country is concerned.

    Plus, as Lawrence rightly pointed out, sodomy laws were only being used to prosecute gays, whereas opposite sex couples practice sodomy as well, in fact, in pure numbers, heterosexuals greatly outdo homosexuals when it comes to acts of sodomy. 40% of heterosexuals have had anal sex, and well over 90% of heterosexuals have engaged in oral sex, both are acts of sodomy. So, apparently the vast majority of heterosexuals do not consider sodomy morally unacceptable to begin with.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Since morals are subjective, individual beliefs of what is right and wrong, it is acceptable. The decision in Lawrence made it "acceptable", at least as far as the law and the majority of the country is concerned.

    Plus, as Lawrence rightly pointed out, sodomy laws were only being used to prosecute gays, whereas opposite sex couples practice sodomy as well, in fact, in pure numbers, heterosexuals greatly outdo homosexuals when it comes to acts of sodomy. 40% of heterosexuals have had anal sex, and well over 90% of heterosexuals have engaged in oral sex, both are acts of sodomy. So, apparently the vast majority of heterosexuals do not consider sodomy morally unacceptable to begin with.
    How are morals subjective?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    How are morals subjective?
    Because they are personal beliefs of whether something is right or wrong. That would make them subjective. There is little chance that anyone on Earth shares their exact moral code with anyone else, given the shear number of nearly infinite moral questions that a person could ask. The answers just wouldn't match completely on every question for any two people, let alone multiple people.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because they are personal beliefs of whether something is right or wrong. That would make them subjective. There is little chance that anyone on Earth shares their exact moral code with anyone else, given the shear number of nearly infinite moral questions that a person could ask. The answers just wouldn't match completely on every question for any two people, let alone multiple people.
    No one knows for absolutely certain the exact number of stars in the galaxy, and each person would guess differently. Does that make the number of stars in the galaxy subjective?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    No one knows for absolutely certain the exact number of stars in the galaxy, and each person would guess differently. Does that make the number of stars in the galaxy subjective?
    No. But we know that we could count the number of galaxies. You can't know what is right or wrong, not for sure. Using scientific principles, you can know the exact number of stars. You cannot know whether something is truly right or truly wrong (morally speaking) using scientific principles.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. But we know that we could count the number of galaxies. You can't know what is right or wrong, not for sure. Using scientific principles, you can know the exact number of stars. You cannot know whether something is truly right or truly wrong (morally speaking) using scientific principles.
    Then what is the exact number of stars?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Then what is the exact number of stars?
    Just as I can't tell you the exact distance from here to our sun, I also cannot tell you the exact number of stars. I do not personally have the necessary equipment to make that determination. Other people might. In fact, there have been some estimations made. Another example. I have never actually witnessed a nuclear reaction, but I have witnessed the results of countless numbers while working in Navy nuclear power. I have no idea how many exact reactions I have witnessed the results of but that number could be quantified given enough data. It would be a scientific analysis, not an opinion or belief about nuclear power or even how many reactions I have witnessed the results of.

    Morals are equivalent to someone saying "the best color is blue" or "the best kind of music is easy listening". They are based purely on personal opinions.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just as I can't tell you the exact distance from here to our sun, I also cannot tell you the exact number of stars. I do not personally have the necessary equipment to make that determination. Other people might. In fact, there have been some estimations made. Another example. I have never actually witnessed a nuclear reaction, but I have witnessed the results of countless numbers while working in Navy nuclear power. I have no idea how many exact reactions I have witnessed the results of but that number could be quantified given enough data. It would be a scientific analysis, not an opinion or belief about nuclear power or even how many reactions I have witnessed the results of.

    Morals are equivalent to someone saying "the best color is blue" or "the best kind of music is easy listening". They are based purely on personal opinions.
    How are morals nothing more than personal opinions?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    How are morals nothing more than personal opinions?
    Because they are. That is in fact part of the definition of morals.

    Moral - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    mor·al
    adjective \ˈmȯr-əl, ˈmär-\

    : concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior

    : based on what you think is right and good

    : considered right and good by most people : agreeing with a standard of right behavior

    This is really easy. Prove that a moral position holds true using measurements of some kind. Use some scientific principle to prove its absolutely true that something you believe is right or wrong is no matter what.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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