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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #301
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I'm sorry but if a religious group no longer supports the religious tenants of said group, aren't they just another religion? I'm not sure what these clowns are asking for? If they don't want to be tied to the religious guidelines of their parent religion, then don't? You can branch out brothers and sisters. Make up your own religion.. What's so difficult to understand here? We believe in Jesus, and the United Church of Jesus, but we also believe in gay marriage, so would you like to join us, or are you going to leave us on religious grounds?

    Freaking joke.. Why is this even news and why and to whom are they suing? The NC ban doesn't prevent ANY religion from performing gay marriages. It only states that they are not recognized by the state.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are twisting the argument by ignoring key words/phrases within it. You ignore this part "up to the point where the state can show that an actual state interest is being furthered or it violates religious freedom". It is right there in what you quoted.

    They need to adopt it not because the UCC wishes them too, but because they have no legitimate interest being furthered by not allowing two people of the same sex from getting married and not allowing two people of the same sex from getting married can be shown to discriminate against some people. This violates the 14th Amendment, specifically the Equal Protection Clause.
    I think it is you that is twisting the argument. This case claims a violation of the First Amendment; it's not a simple regurgitation of arguments made elsewhere.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I think it is you that is twisting the argument. This case claims a violation of the First Amendment; it's not a simple regurgitation of arguments made elsewhere.
    This case claims a violation of several Amendments. The difference here is that they are including a violation of the First Amendment as well.

    The specific law though that is violating the First Amendment though in this case isn't technically the law that says that same sex couples cannot get married, but rather the law that says that clergymen can be punished by the government for performing a wedding ceremony for them or anyone else without the couple/people having a marriage license issued by the state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This case claims a violation of several Amendments. The difference here is that they are including a violation of the First Amendment as well.

    The specific law though that is violating the First Amendment though in this case isn't technically the law that says that same sex couples cannot get married, but rather the law that says that clergymen can be punished by the government for performing a wedding ceremony for them or anyone else without the couple/people having a marriage license issued by the state.
    The comment of mine that you seemed to take issue with specifically addressed the 1st Amendment claim regarding religious freedom (which is what has garnered all the interest and press). A due process claim is wholly different matter, even if they appear in the same lawsuit.

    The section of the law that the plaintiffs claim make it a misdemeanor for clergy to perform wholly religious ceremonies does no such thing. Nobody has ever or will ever be found guilty of such a thing. The law regards the intent to perform a state-recognized marriage without a licence. It is similar to laws found in many other states.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    The comment of mine that you seemed to take issue with specifically addressed the 1st Amendment claim regarding religious freedom (which is what has garnered all the interest and press). A due process claim is wholly different matter, even if they appear in the same lawsuit.

    The section of the law that the plaintiffs claim make it a misdemeanor for clergy to perform wholly religious ceremonies does no such thing. Nobody has ever or will ever be found guilty of such a thing. The law regards the intent to perform a state-recognized marriage without a licence. It is similar to laws found in many other states.
    You seem to be missing their whole point of including that into their challenge. It is to correctly point out that the only people having their First Amendment rights violated by laws regarding same sex marriage are those who support it or wish to enter into it and when laws against same sex marriage exist. It aids in the overall argument that those bringing the suit are making, that same sex marriage restrictions violate the Constitution in many ways.

    You cannot prove that no one can ever or will ever be found guilty of the law in question or punished under the law in question and the simple fear of having the law in question used against someone is enough to warrant challenging that law when no clear ruling has every been made on that particular law or really even similar laws. There are in fact several states that have similar laws in place, although many are actually aimed against polygamists. But this isn't true for all. I have even seen it argued on here a couple of years ago how the laws in one state (I believe it was South Dakota) said pretty much the same thing and I believe something about how that proves that personal marriages were in fact tied to legal marriages.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You seem to be missing their whole point of including that into their challenge. It is to correctly point out that the only people having their First Amendment rights violated by laws regarding same sex marriage are those who support it or wish to enter into it and when laws against same sex marriage exist. It aids in the overall argument that those bringing the suit are making, that same sex marriage restrictions violate the Constitution in many ways.
    I doubt there are any laws in NC regarding same sex marriage, much less laws "against" same sex marriage. The law does define what constitutes a marriage as it applies to the law in the state . Anything outside that definition is not recognized, which would include same sex marriages and any other type of marriage one might be able to think up.

    You cannot prove that no one can ever or will ever be found guilty of the law in question or punished under the law in question and the simple fear of having the law in question used against someone is enough to warrant challenging that law when no clear ruling has every been made on that particular law or really even similar laws.
    No, you can't prove anything when it comes to the law, but interpreting the law in the manner the plaintiffs suggest serves no purpose and benefits no-one, regardless of sexual orientation. The probability of this occurring is extremely unlikely, and the probability of a reversal near certain, so all this seems to do is drum up unwarranted fear.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I doubt there are any laws in NC regarding same sex marriage, much less laws "against" same sex marriage. The law does define what constitutes a marriage as it applies to the law in the state . Anything outside that definition is not recognized, which would include same sex marriages and any other type of marriage one might be able to think up.

    No, you can't prove anything when it comes to the law, but interpreting the law in the manner the plaintiffs suggest serves no purpose and benefits no-one, regardless of sexual orientation. The probability of this occurring is extremely unlikely, and the probability of a reversal near certain, so all this seems to do is drum up unwarranted fear.
    The fact that NC does not recognize same sex marriages is a law against same sex marriages, just as not recognizing interracial marriages would be a law against interracial marriages. They cannot get married. That violates the US Constitution because they are not being treated the same by the government (state government) due to their relative genders. If one of them were a different gender, they would be able to marry. That violates equal protection because the government cannot show a legitimate state interest being furthered by such a restriction based on gender.

    And laws that violate a clergy's right to perform a ceremony, as the law included in this suit does, are unconstitutional and need to be addressed. In addition, it forces the states to actually look at these laws and determine why they are in place.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The fact that NC does not recognize same sex marriages is a law against same sex marriages, just as not recognizing interracial marriages would be a law against interracial marriages.
    Laws against interracial marriages were just that... they made it a criminal offense to join in or conduct an interracial marriage. Absence of a law is not the same thing as a law against.

    They cannot get married. That violates the US Constitution because they are not being treated the same by the government (state government) due to their relative genders. If one of them were a different gender, they would be able to marry. That violates equal protection because the government cannot show a legitimate state interest being furthered by such a restriction based on gender.
    They can get married, I'd say it's more a question of state recognition.

    And laws that violate a clergy's right to perform a ceremony, as the law included in this suit does, are unconstitutional and need to be addressed. In addition, it forces the states to actually look at these laws and determine why they are in place.
    Pretty much everybody would be against such a law if one existed. The law in question has been in place since before same-sex marriage was an issue, so it's kind of hard to claim that it was enacted for some nefarious purpose. The law was put into place for the same reason that we penalize people for driving without a licence. Why bother to license if there's no consequence for not obtaining one?

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Laws against interracial marriages were just that... they made it a criminal offense to join in or conduct an interracial marriage. Absence of a law is not the same thing as a law against.
    Uh what the hell do you call michigan's voter ban on SSM or NC's prop 1 or texas' ban etc, all struck down by fed courts as unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    They can get married, I'd say it's more a question of state recognition.
    Which prevents the 1000+ rights from taking effect, and certainly any state rights


    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Pretty much everybody would be against such a law if one existed. The law in question has been in place since before same-sex marriage was an issue, so it's kind of hard to claim that it was enacted for some nefarious purpose. The law was put into place for the same reason that we penalize people for driving without a licence. Why bother to license if there's no consequence for not obtaining one?
    No they wouldn't and no it wasn't. The proposition was put on the ballot in 2010s (not bothering to look up exactly when just to respond to bs like this, you look it up) entirely as part of the anti gay pandemic that swept over the nation that some in this thread still need to recover from apparently

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Uh what the hell do you call michigan's voter ban on SSM or NC's prop 1 or texas' ban etc, all struck down by fed courts as unconstitutional?
    I would call them exactly what they are: laws that define marriage as it pertains to law.

    No they wouldn't and no it wasn't. The proposition was put on the ballot in 2010s (not bothering to look up exactly when just to respond to bs like this, you look it up) entirely as part of the anti gay pandemic that swept over the nation that some in this thread still need to recover from apparently
    Don't know what you're blathering about. We were discussing the law that pertains to marriages performed without a license, which has nothing to do with a ballot proposition.

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