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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #291
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The church should be able to perform SSM ceremonies, but the fact that their religion supports it doesn't mean the government should. If people don't want religion defining marriage then you have to have it both ways with it being left up to the people, not having a bias where religion is allowed to dictate government policy and recognition when it happens to be convenient for your views.
    No, it has to be left up to the courts to interpret the constitution. The people are way too inept and prejudiced for this

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Did you read the article?

    Yes. It is ILLEGAL for a priest to perform a private, non-state recognized, religious ceremony of marriage between two individuals of the same sex if they also have the ability to solemnize a normal marriage.

    It's making news, because the State has made a religious ceremony illegal.
    The article might have some credibility had they sought out objective legal advice rather than merely assuming the plaintiff's arguments and interpretation of the law are fact.

    As it turns out, the doesn't work that way in NC. Nobody has been jailed or fined or sued for performing a purely religious ceremony.

    The only way they would get in trouble is if they intended to perform a legal marriage ceremony without a valid marriage license.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The suit will ask a district court in North Carolina to strike down the state's laws barring same-sex marriages, in part because a provision that makes it a misdemeanor for clergy to perform the ceremonies violates the church's religious freedom.
    Discussion?

    Article is here - United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage.
    In other words, "the civic definition of marriage must conform to our religious definition, or it violates our religious freedom."

    Yeah, good luck with that guys. Are you really sure you want to win that arguement?

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    In other words, "the civic definition of marriage must conform to our religious definition, or it violates our religious freedom."

    Yeah, good luck with that guys. Are you really sure you want to win that arguement?
    Actually it is a brilliant move, because they won't win on that argument at all. Which will nullify the argument the right has used for YEARS.

    Then it will be a clean attack on gender discrimination and win on that argument.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    There is nothing brilliant about this lawsuit.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    In other words, "the civic definition of marriage must conform to our religious definition, or it violates our religious freedom."

    Yeah, good luck with that guys. Are you really sure you want to win that arguement?
    The argument is that "the civic definition must include any religious or personal definitions of marriage up to the point where the state can show that an actual state interest is being furthered or it violates religious freedom".

    And yes, that is the winning argument because it is how the Constitution works.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The argument is that "the civic definition must include any religious or personal definitions of marriage up to the point where the state can show that an actual state interest is being furthered or it violates religious freedom".

    And yes, that is the winning argument because it is how the Constitution works.
    No, that is a nonsensical argument. There is no logical basis for demanding that a civic definition of marriage conform to any and all other possible definitions. The government's failure to recognize the UCoC's definition in no way violates their religious freedom. They're free to define it however they wish. The state need not adopt it simply because they use the same word to define a different concept.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    No, that is a nonsensical argument. There is no logical basis for demanding that a civic definition of marriage conform to any and all other possible definitions. The government's failure to recognize the UCoC's definition in no way violates their religious freedom. They're free to define it however they wish. The state need not adopt it simply because they use the same word to define a different concept.
    You are twisting the argument by ignoring key words/phrases within it. You ignore this part "up to the point where the state can show that an actual state interest is being furthered or it violates religious freedom". It is right there in what you quoted.

    They need to adopt it not because the UCC wishes them too, but because they have no legitimate interest being furthered by not allowing two people of the same sex from getting married and not allowing two people of the same sex from getting married can be shown to discriminate against some people. This violates the 14th Amendment, specifically the Equal Protection Clause.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    No, it has to be left up to the courts to interpret the constitution. The people are way too inept and prejudiced for this
    The Supreme court acts as any other court. It is an arbiter between two factions of thought. The SC uses the Constitution as judicial reasoning for their rulings. The Supreme court is not just passing down edict from the high court as to what is and what is not constitutional.

    Lastly, the people are the final arbiters as to what is and is not constitutional through the amendment process.


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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    The Supreme court acts as any other court. It is an arbiter between two factions of thought. The SC uses the Constitution as judicial reasoning for their rulings. The Supreme court is not just passing down edict from the high court as to what is and what is not constitutional.

    Lastly, the people are the final arbiters as to what is and is not constitutional through the amendment process.
    It's in theory possible for the people to have some input on our laws in that way, but nothing of consequence has been amended since well before i was born. Try getting 2/3 of the senate to agree on anything. The SC is far more likely to act as final arbiter of any law, thankfully.

    Who can forget prop H8 for example and it's clones ranging from michigan to north carolina. **** the people, and the govt. The SC will take care of their attempts to oppress.

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