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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #261
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    As already noted, yes.



    Many species do, in fact, exhibit homosexual behavior.

    Many primates (and, I'm guessing, lots of other animals) engage in sexual acts for pleasure, as well as to establish social connections and hierarchies, and are not thinking too much about the reproductive aspect. For example, bonobos are well-documented as using sex for a wide variety of purposes, such as stress relief and conflict avoidance.
    But are there species with asexual reproduction, that have sex?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I do. It doesn't cause them pain, it doesn't shorten their lifespan, there is no indication that they suffer any emotional distress, the species isn't going to be harmed by reducing the population.
    Weird. I guess you wouldn't mind it then. lol.

    I'm sorry, I'm confused. Are you trying to say that declawing is good or bad?
    Bad. What I'm saying is that cats can be taught where they are allowed to use their claws.

    Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that many breeds are healthy, or that we can always relax breeding programs to improve the health of those animals, or that domestication has often resulted in mutual benefits.
    Pretty much all breeds have health issues related to their breeding.

    So what? If the animal in question stays in a domestic environment, then they have not been harmed.
    The point is you can't remove them from human care. Sorry, but that is a problem considering that before we meddled we were not required for them to survive.

    Nor is it clear what the survival and success rates will be of domesticated animals. It's not like "animal life in the wild" guarantees safety and good health for all animals.
    Being able to survive in the wild only means they have the necessary tools to do it. Some domesticated animals lack the instincts, while others lack the physical capability for it.

    Again, the problems we see with domesticated animals are not a direct result of doing something "unnatural."
    Actually, every last problem you see with domesticated animals is a result of human intervention.

    If that was the case, then almost everything every human does would be morally suspect, including using computers and participating in web forums. The ethical issues arise when our choices result in harm for the animals or other humans; and we do see many mutual benefits as a direct result of the "unnatural" domestication process.

    Or, to state the obvious: If there is a moral imperative to do what is "natural," then you should get rid of your clothes, your house, your money, your car, move to Tanzania and try to live on the savannah, which is the environment in which humans evolved. You cannot grow crops, you can't use fire, all you can do is gather plants, hunt and eat raw meat. And no dogs allowed.
    I wasn't arguing that unnatural acts are bad, but just that your example to show that they are good was poor.

  3. #263
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    But are there species with asexual reproduction, that have sex?
    Why does that matter? They are further back on the evolutionary chart, but they are also less advanced species. The point I made to begin with was that sexual reproduction developed more and more toward bonding rather than simply to make children in order to encourage relationships between the parents of children, which gives the offspring a higher chance of survival, especially important in species that have fewer offspring at a single time.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    But are there species with asexual reproduction, that have sex?
    There is no question that some animal species engage in sexual behavior for reasons other than reproductions. I'm not here to give you a zoology lesson, do your own research.

    In the meantime, and to repeat....

    • There is no question that engaging in non-procreative sex has no effect whatsoever on the overall reproductive abilities and preferences of humans. Wearing a condom on Tuesday does not make you sterile on Wednesday.
    • You have completely failed to demonstrate any moral imperative to behaviors that do not meet "natural ends."

    Again: A woman is only fertile for a few days of the month. A woman can engage in sexual activity on the other days without having any effect whatsoever on her ability to reproduce. Is it thus immoral for a wife to engage in sex with her husband, with the intention of generating mutual pleasure, on days when she is not fertile?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why does that matter? They are further back on the evolutionary chart, but they are also less advanced species. The point I made to begin with was that sexual reproduction developed more and more toward bonding rather than simply to make children in order to encourage relationships between the parents of children, which gives the offspring a higher chance of survival, especially important in species that have fewer offspring at a single time.
    Name one such species.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Name one such species.
    Bonobos.
    Last edited by Visbek; 05-01-14 at 09:46 PM.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Bonobos.

    Also, chimpanzees, and many other socially-oriented primates.
    Those species don't reproduce asexually.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Name one such species.
    Our own species has sex mainly for bonding. The average adult human has sex around 100 times per year. Yet the average person only wants 2-3 children if any. My own family had 6 and despite my mother being Catholic, she insisted she was done after my youngest brother and they could no longer have children by their choice (via an operation). My parents certainly didn't stop having sex after that. My husband and I have 2 and are pretty much done (we have talked about adopting however, despite being more than capable of having more of our own). In fact, pretty sure even older couples have sex after they can't make babies any longer. Sex is mainly about bonding. It feels good, and therefore is likely to eventually result in offspring, particularly if the couple involved chooses not to use any prevention methods. Most couples do use prevention methods though more often than they don't.

    Most primate species have sex for bonding purposes. The same is true for many cetaceans. These are considered more advanced and in fact some of the smarter species of animals.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Those species don't reproduce asexually.
    Irrelevant. You already admitted that non-procreative sex does not inhibit procreation. By your own standard, sodomy does not inhibit procreation.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Irrelevant. You already admitted that non-procreative sex does not inhibit procreation. By your own standard, sodomy does not inhibit procreation.
    It would be really helpful if you actually read the thread.

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