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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #251
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    As already noted, yes.

    Many species do, in fact, exhibit homosexual behavior.

    Many primates (and, I'm guessing, lots of other animals) engage in sexual acts for pleasure, as well as to establish social connections and hierarchies, and are not thinking too much about the reproductive aspect. For example, bonobos are well-documented as using sex for a wide variety of purposes, such as stress relief and conflict avoidance.
    Dolphins and porpoises have been known to have sex using their blowholes.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #252
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Here are two questions:

    Are there any species which reproduce by means other than sex?
    Yes pretty much all plant species don't have sex to reproduce.

    Many species of fish don't have sex to reproduce, eggs are laid in certain place and then the male will deposit sperm over the eggs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Are there any species which have sex for a purpose other than reproduction (i.e. they reproduce some other way)?

    Humans have sex for purposes other than reproduction. As a matter of fact there are two conditions that support this: (a) those who can reproduce that use contraception and then have sex, and (b) those unable to reproduce who also have sex.


    >>>>

  3. #253
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The church should be able to perform SSM ceremonies, but the fact that their religion supports it doesn't mean the government should. If people don't want religion defining marriage then you have to have it both ways with it being left up to the people, not having a bias where religion is allowed to dictate government policy and recognition when it happens to be convenient for your views.
    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Oh please... They are arguing that not allowing SSM is the state judging that "children of God" are unfit for holy matrimony. If you want to argue along the lines of religion one could also say that it does harm others, because it will reinforce a life of sin leading these people to be judged for it and spend an eternity in everlasting hell (which is my religious beliefs).

    The ministers should be allowed to perform ceremonies, but the state is under no obligation to recognize those couples as legally wed because their religious denomination believes that they are as such in the eyes of their god.
    You have it backwards. The state should not fail to recognize their legal kinship because your holy book says its bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    An infertile couple is not intentionally impeding or procreation, or doing anything that is inherently non-reproductive.

    Sodomy is, by nature, incapable of producing children.
    Sodomy doesn't impede procreation. You just said it's ok for a couple to have sex if it doesn't impede procreation. You are a hypocrite. You can't stand by your own statements. You're just trying, and failing, to make a distinction that puts gay sex in a different category that you can disapprove of. Sex in an infertile couple, by definition, can't produce children. It is inherently non-reproductive. But you're still ok with it. Sex between homosexuals, by nature, can't produce children. But you're against it.

    Because your stated beliefs about the intent of the couple, or nature of sex, are complete bull****. You disapprove of gay sex, and that's the only basis of your belief. So be a man and just say that it's the only basis for your belief. Don't lie. God hates liars.
    Last edited by Deuce; 05-01-14 at 07:54 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  4. #254
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It is in many places than it would be to change everything. Which would take more time to implement? A SCOTUS ruling that says that it is unconstitutional to restrict marriage based on sex/gender or a complete revamp of the marriage and spousal recognition laws that would completely change how society deals with marriage and the kinship rights/privileges/responsibilities that go with it? Pretty sure it is the first one, the SCOTUS ruling.
    You people just wanna have your cake and eat it too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #255
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I had no idea you were a vegan.
    That's just no way to live.

    Yes. The harm to the animal is minimal, and it prevents future dog and cat generations from suffering feral existences.
    I don't consider castration a minimal harm. :/

    I do not support declawing cats, no matter how many times they shred my couch.
    I think some people really don't realize they can teach their cat what they are allowed to do and what they are not.

    I do not support it when it harms the animals.

    In many (but not all) cases, though, the changes are mutually beneficial. A dog bred to shepherd animals will, as best we can tell, enjoy shepherding animals; a dog bred to like human beings will enjoy being around human beings. Cats often live a much better life when domesticated than when feral.
    There are several breeds that have health issues that were directly caused by how they were developed as a breed. There is also plenty of breeds that are completely incapable of living in the wild due to being breed for nothing more than to meet some selfish desire of people. For example, the entire toy variety of dogs are completely incapable of being anything other than a pet.

    I'm quite confident I can. To be clear, the keys are mutual benefit, and harm.

    When we domesticate an animal, and the benefits are mutual, then the domestication is justifiable. When we take care of our dogs, and they enjoy the tasks for which we have bred them, then it is ethically irrelevant that domestication is an "unnatural" process.

    If our actions harm an animal, then we have an ethical issue. The problem lies not in that we did something "unnatural" by domesticating the animal, it's that our choices have harmed that animal.

    So, even if we believe that "domestication is unethical," this is not based on doing something "unnatural." It's based on doing harm.
    Domestication of animals over generations of time will diminish and in time nullify the animals natural instincts to survive in the wild and make them dependent on having human owners. That is not even considering that many times we breed those instincts out of them on purpose. If you are arguing that unnatural acts are not harmful there is really no way you can use domesticated cats and dogs as an example.

  6. #256
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Gay marriages are harmful to society.

    Cars also are known to kill people, but the individual risk is so minimal that they should not be banned.
    so you think the government should only act in support of bigotry...got it.

  7. #257
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You people just wanna have your cake and eat it too.
    Why would I ever want to have a piece of cake and not also be able to eat it? That would be pointless, completely. So, yes, I do want my cake and to eat it too.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #258
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why would I ever want to have a piece of cake and not also be able to eat it? That would be pointless, completely. So, yes, I do want my cake and to eat it too.
    At this point you cant even have the cake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #259
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I don't consider castration a minimal harm.
    I do. It doesn't cause them pain, it doesn't shorten their lifespan, there is no indication that they suffer any emotional distress, the species isn't going to be harmed by reducing the population.


    I think some people really don't realize they can teach their cat what they are allowed to do and what they are not.
    I'm sorry, I'm confused. Are you trying to say that declawing is good or bad?


    There are several breeds that have health issues that were directly caused by how they were developed as a breed....
    Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that many breeds are healthy, or that we can always relax breeding programs to improve the health of those animals, or that domestication has often resulted in mutual benefits.


    Domestication of animals over generations of time will diminish and in time nullify the animals natural instincts to survive in the wild and make them dependent on having human owners.
    So what? If the animal in question stays in a domestic environment, then they have not been harmed.

    Nor is it clear what the survival and success rates will be of domesticated animals. It's not like "animal life in the wild" guarantees safety and good health for all animals.

    Again, the problems we see with domesticated animals are not a direct result of doing something "unnatural." If that was the case, then almost everything every human does would be morally suspect, including using computers and participating in web forums. The ethical issues arise when our choices result in harm for the animals or other humans; and we do see many mutual benefits as a direct result of the "unnatural" domestication process.

    Or, to state the obvious: If there is a moral imperative to do what is "natural," then you should get rid of your clothes, your house, your money, your car, move to Tanzania and try to live on the savannah, which is the environment in which humans evolved. You cannot grow crops, you can't use fire, all you can do is gather plants, hunt and eat raw meat. And no dogs allowed.

  10. #260
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    At this point you cant even have the cake.
    Sure they can. In many places in the US, same sex couples can legally marry and all same sex marriages in those states are also legally recognized by the federal government. The only thing now is those states that ban same sex marriage, which is going to come much more quickly than your proposal.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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