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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #201
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    So what? Impeding procreation is not evil. A girl refusing to have sex with a guy is also impeding procreation, so that must be evil to you as well. Guess rape is good in your eyes cause then it doesn't impeded procreation.
    Procreation is the natural end of sex, not of simply existing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Right. But using a condom on Tuesday does not require me to use a condom on Wednesday.



    Animals certainly do not exist for the "benefit of mankind." Mosquitos, lions, jellyfish and thousands of other species that are hostile or harmful to humans offer no real "benefit" to humanity.

    There is also no question that dogs evolved from wolves, due to selective pressures exerted by humans on individuals from that species. By domesticating dogs, we have subverted the "natural ends" of wolves.

    In fact, if it is justifiable to subvert the "natural end" of an animal in order to suit a purpose of our choosing, then it ought to be justifiable to subvert a human's "natural end" to serve a purpose of our choosing.
    And that is why it is licit to kill Mosquitos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    So what? Either it is a "natural end" for human beings to reproduce, or it isn't.

    For example, let's say a married couple chooses to have a child. We know, for a fact, that a woman can only get pregnant when she is ovulating. If the married couple chooses to have sex for pleasure a week before she is ovulating, is that "immoral?" No. Does it prevent that couple from having sex while she is ovulating, for the specific purpose of having a child? Surely not.



    I see no justification whatsoever for drawing this distinction.
    Such a couple does not do anything to impede procreation.

    Answer the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Uh, no? The natural ends of contracting polio is death or permanent disability, so I think I'll go ahead and impede that by being vaccinated.
    It is in the nature of man to protect his life.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Procreation is the natural end of sex, not of simply existing.
    So you admit you are for rape then, because stopping a rape would be impeding procreation. Thank you, that's all I needed to know about you. You're dismissed son.

  3. #203
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Procreation is the natural end of sex, not of simply existing.
    It is a possible end. It is not universally true, nor is it required. Do you think it should be illegal for a married couple to have sex if they were infertile?


    Such a couple does not do anything to impede procreation.
    Exactly. Having sex for pleasure does not impede procreation. Therefore sodomy does not impede procreation.

    It is in the nature of man to protect his life.
    And it is in the nature of man to have sex for fun.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  4. #204
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    It takes the government out of the "creation" equation.

    It does not take the government out of the "recognition" equation.



    It last count there were 1,138 rights, responsibilities and benefits tied to legal recognition of Civil Marriage. Figure 300 or so per State and that's over 16,000 actions by government contingent on recognition of Civil Marriage.



    >>>>
    A marriage contract, isuued and made legal by an attorney would have to be recognized by the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    In the case of SSM versus marriage they are correct on that too. Right now, there are many rights automatically granted to heterosexual couples that marry whereas SSM couples have to jump through hoops to get those rights through paperwork, witness fees, etc. and still don't get all the same rights.
    Benefits are attached to marriage, not rights. Regardless, nothing about a marriage contract that people actually deserve can't be obtained through a private contract. If you want something bad enough there is no reason you wouldn't go through the work nessarcy to obtain it. There is no reason to involve government in something just because you want it for yourself.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Why should there be a license at all? If 2 people want to marry, they should just do what our own forefathers did, and consider themselves married, and **** the attorneys, the government, and all the other vampires.
    I agree, but at the same time I understand WHY there is a licensing procedure. What I'm suggesting is middle-ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A marriage contract, isuued and made legal by an attorney would have to be recognized by the government.

    So this contract drawn up by the attorney would provide access to the same 16,000 rights, responsibilities, and benefits of Civil Marriage - the only difference is that instead of spending $35 for a State certificate people get to go spend hundereds, if not thousands, for an attorney to issue them the same thing. (Our Attorney charges about $300 an hour with a one hour minimum.)


    Ya people will be happy with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A marriage contract, isuued and made legal by an attorney would have to be recognized by the government.

    In addition such a contract issued in Massachusetts would be equally valid in - say - North Carolina, right?


    >>>>

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Benefits are attached to marriage, not rights. Regardless, nothing about a marriage contract that people actually deserve can't be obtained through a private contract. If you want something bad enough there is no reason you wouldn't go through the work nessarcy to obtain it. There is no reason to involve government in something just because you want it for yourself.
    Again the compare the costs of doing this. Marriage for heterosexual couples - automatic benefits $50 marriage license. Benefits for SS couples lawyers, fees, papers drawn up for individual items, - thousands of dollars.

    No, what's going to happen is SSM will be legalized and opponents will end up dealing with it like they had to with interracial marriage. No I'm directly comparing the two, only the results where the idiots had to deal with it.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That makes no sense from a market perspective. Marriages are standard contracts, often with extensive case law to resolve ambiguities that inevitably arise, so it's very easy for third parties of all sorts to know their rights and responsibilities when dealing with "married" couples. Your way, a creditor has to see, read, interpret, and/or modify his contract to comply with the 1000s of potentially unique contracts for 'married' couples. What's gained by that, except a LOT more work for attorneys?
    Married is married. The contracts would prove the one thing that anyone needs to verify; that the two people are married.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I agree, but at the same time I understand WHY there is a licensing procedure. What I'm suggesting is middle-ground.

    Does this "middle ground" you suggest change how government recognizes Civil Marriage or does it only change who produces the "Marriage Certificate" (government entity or private attorney)?

    In other words the 1,138 rights, responsibilities, and benefits (federal) and hundreds more in each State don't change. The only thing that changes is the initial license/certificate, right?


    **************************************

    If it does change accesses to rights, responsibilities, and benefits - no one will buy into it.

    If it doesn't change anything, then why make people spend hundreds more to get the same thing a $35-$50 fee does?



    >>>>

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