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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    You're saying that procreation isn't the natural end is sex? Really?
    It is one of many purposes. And there is nothing immoral or harmful about engaging in sex for those other purposes.

    Nor have you demonstrated, in any reasonable way, how non-procreative sex somehow "impedes" sex-for-procreation. Neither did the defenders of California's Prop 8; in fact, they spectacularly failed to prove that SSM caused any harm whatsoever to opposite-sex marriage.


    So it is your opinion that morality is not objective?
    I believe universal ethics can be developed. However, I reject the idea that "sex must be for procreation" or "thou shalt not impede a natural end" are valid universal maxims. Nor do I see any necessity for such a claim.

    Or, to turn this around: Are you actually saying that it is immoral for a healthy adult to consciously choose not to reproduce? And if so, why shouldn't the state be empowered to compel me to have a child?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    My wife and I have been married going on 30 years. So Conservatively speaking, assuming sex once a week for 30 years we get 52*30 = 1560. We have two children.


    If pregnancy were the natural end of sex, then we should have a lot more children than 2. Not all children result from sex (with IVF and sperm donation) these days. Some men have had testicular cancer and had their testies removed, some women have hysterectomies - preganancy will never be the natural outcome for them.



    >>>>
    People used to have more children than they do now. Those aren't intended to obstruct procreation.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    It is one of many purposes. And there is nothing immoral or harmful about engaging in sex for those other purposes.

    Nor have you demonstrated, in any reasonable way, how non-procreative sex somehow "impedes" sex-for-procreation. Neither did the defenders of California's Prop 8; in fact, they spectacularly failed to prove that SSM caused any harm whatsoever to opposite-sex marriage.



    I believe universal ethics can be developed. However, I reject the idea that "sex must be for procreation" or "thou shalt not impede a natural end" are valid universal maxims. Nor do I see any necessity for such a claim.

    Or, to turn this around: Are you actually saying that it is immoral for a healthy adult to consciously choose not to reproduce? And if so, why shouldn't the state be empowered to compel me to have a child?
    Contraception impedes procreation in the specific instance.

    Is the person doing this by abstaining or by contracepting?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Contraception impedes procreation in the specific instance.
    So what? Impeding procreation is not evil. A girl refusing to have sex with a guy is also impeding procreation, so that must be evil to you as well. Guess rape is good in your eyes cause then it doesn't impeded procreation.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Contraception impedes the natural end of the specific sex act.
    Right. But using a condom on Tuesday does not require me to use a condom on Wednesday.


    Animals exist for the benefit of mankind. So the things you mention are not against their natural end.
    Animals certainly do not exist for the "benefit of mankind." Mosquitos, lions, jellyfish and thousands of other species that are hostile or harmful to humans offer no real "benefit" to humanity.

    There is also no question that dogs evolved from wolves, due to selective pressures exerted by humans on individuals from that species. By domesticating dogs, we have subverted the "natural ends" of wolves.

    In fact, if it is justifiable to subvert the "natural end" of an animal in order to suit a purpose of our choosing, then it ought to be justifiable to subvert a human's "natural end" to serve a purpose of our choosing.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Very interesting lawsuit. So the question is this? If the United Church of Christ, which supports gay marriage, is not allowed to perform gay marriages, then are their first amendment religious freedoms being violated? They have certainly opened up a can of worms with this lawsuit.

    Discussion?

    Article is here - United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage.

    Note to mods - Title would not fit, so I had to take a couple of words out to make it fit.

    Second note to mods. The source changed the title, so now it doesn't match at all. LOL.
    Boy, the Church of Christ certainly has changed. They used to have very high sphincter tone.

    Seems to me like they can perform the religious sacrement of marriage even if the civil authorities won't recognise it. This is a good argument for seperating the religious sacrement from the civil function as is the case in some other countries -- a couple goes to the church to get married and then to the court house to get married again.

    The fact that we in the US do have religious officials performing civilly valid marriages is left over from the days when states had official religions I would guess. That rationale is obviously no longer valid. The civil marriage, which entails special privileges and obligations for a couple under the law, should be severed from the religious sacrement.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    There is a very big difference in Church of Christ and UCC.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Boy, the Church of Christ certainly has changed. They used to have very high sphincter tone.

    Seems to me like they can perform the religious sacrement of marriage even if the civil authorities won't recognise it. This is a good argument for seperating the religious sacrement from the civil function as is the case in some other countries -- a couple goes to the church to get married and then to the court house to get married again.

    The fact that we in the US do have religious officials performing civilly valid marriages is left over from the days when states had official religions I would guess. That rationale is obviously no longer valid. The civil marriage, which entails special privileges and obligations for a couple under the law, should be severed from the religious sacrement.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Contraception impedes procreation in the specific instance.
    So what? Either it is a "natural end" for human beings to reproduce, or it isn't.

    For example, let's say a married couple chooses to have a child. We know, for a fact, that a woman can only get pregnant when she is ovulating. If the married couple chooses to have sex for pleasure a week before she is ovulating, is that "immoral?" No. Does it prevent that couple from having sex while she is ovulating, for the specific purpose of having a child? Surely not.


    Is the person doing this by abstaining or by contracepting?
    I see no justification whatsoever for drawing this distinction.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    When one deliberately impedes the natural end of an act, that is a moral deficiency, is it not?
    Uh, no? The natural ends of contracting polio is death or permanent disability, so I think I'll go ahead and impede that by being vaccinated.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    There is a very big difference in Church of Christ and UCC.
    Do tell. I'll have to read up on that one day.

    The Church of Christ and I inhabit different orbits. My mother, God rest her soul, used to hate the Christers with the intensity of a thousand suns. Her worst fear was that I might end up married to one.

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