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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #181
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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    The hypocrisy is obvious and rich.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Well, so obviously there is outrage o'plenty on ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, NYT, LAT and so on, right? You are just learning about this, I assume, because you only watch Fox News?
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    When one deliberately impedes the natural end of an act, that is a moral deficiency, is it not?
    No, it isn't.

    In fact, it is only your assumption that the "natural end" of the particular act in question should be pregnancy. In fact, the most natural end to that act is simply bonding between the two people. Pregnancy may or may not occur, but it certainly doesn't always occur. And it doesn't even take contraceptives to prevent it occurrence. Plenty of people simply use timing and/or "pull out" to prevent pregnancies. And they have been doing so since people first realized where babies come from.

    And morals are relative. Just because you think it is morally wrong to prevent pregnancy, does not mean the rest of us do. Most people have no moral conflict with preventing pregnancies.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, it isn't.

    In fact, it is only your assumption that the "natural end" of the particular act in question should be pregnancy. In fact, the most natural end to that act is simply bonding between the two people. Pregnancy may or may not occur, but it certainly doesn't always occur. And it doesn't even take contraceptives to prevent it occurrence. Plenty of people simply use timing and/or "pull out" to prevent pregnancies. And they have been doing so since people first realized where babies come from.

    And morals are relative. Just because you think it is morally wrong to prevent pregnancy, does not mean the rest of us do. Most people have no moral conflict with preventing pregnancies.
    Yes it is.

    You're saying that procreation isn't the natural end is sex? Really?

    So it is your opinion that morality is not objective?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Why should there be a license at all? If 2 people want to marry, they should just do what our own forefathers did, and consider themselves married, and **** the attorneys, the government, and all the other vampires.
    OK, then who gets to make healthcare decisions for the child of that couple? Mom? Dad? Both? And the hospital knows the man standing there has rights how? He says he's married to the mother of the child, but how are they to know? If you buy a house, and live with your "wife" for 10 years in the house and die, what happens to the house? She can say she's married to you, but without a legal document to that effect, you can bet your last penny in a lot of cases the husband's family will sue for that house, claiming the woman was just a live in whore taking advantage of their son/brother. If there is a will, they'll challenge the will, allege any technicality to get it thrown out. Etc.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Yes it is.

    You're saying that procreation isn't the natural end is sex? Really?

    So it is your opinion that morality is not objective?
    Yes, I am saying that procreation is not the only natural end to sex, but rather a possible consequence of sex.

    And morality is not objective. You cannot prove morality. You cannot provide any facts that you are "right", that your views are what everything should be based on. You cannot quantitatively prove morality, specifically an absolute morality for everyone, so that makes it subjective. It is your opinion that something is right rather than wrong or wrong rather than right.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Yes it is.

    You're saying that procreation isn't the natural end is sex? Really?

    So it is your opinion that morality is not objective?
    Morality may be 'objective' but what isn't is who exactly gets to declare the objective standard, because that standard certainly isn't written down in THE book (there are many books claiming the guide to objective morality) and happens to change, from society to society, and from time to time, and generally corresponds to some form of societal advantage, which also changes as man has evolved.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes, I am saying that procreation is not the only natural end to sex, but rather a possible consequence of sex.

    And morality is not objective. You cannot prove morality. You cannot provide any facts that you are "right", that your views are what everything should be based on. You cannot quantitatively prove morality, specifically an absolute morality for everyone, so that makes it subjective. It is your opinion that something is right rather than wrong or wrong rather than right.
    But it is a natural end, is it not?

    Is that objectively true?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    When one deliberately impedes the natural end of an act, that is a moral deficiency, is it not?
    No, it is not.

    Again:
    1) Non-procreative sex does not actually impede anyone, in any way, from subsequently choosing to engage in sex-for-procreation.
    2) There is no moral obligation for humans to reproduce.

    For example, if we allowed dogs to pursue their "natural ends," they would have still be wolves. Instead, thousands of years ago we domesticated them, and have tuned their abilities to a phenomenal extent. It is not immoral to raise dogs to be pets, to assist the blind, to herd sheep or to protect a building on the basis that doing so somehow "impedes" their "natural end."

    Similarly, it is not immoral to spay or neuter dogs, because one of their "natural ends" is to reproduce. In fact, we generally regard it as more compassionate and humane to spay/neuter dogs and cats, because so many of their offspring end up unwanted and abandoned.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    But it is a natural end, is it not?

    Is that objectively true?

    My wife and I have been married going on 30 years. So Conservatively speaking, assuming sex once a week for 30 years we get 52*30 = 1560. We have two children.


    If pregnancy were the natural end of sex, then we should have a lot more children than 2. Not all children result from sex (with IVF and sperm donation) these days. Some men have had testicular cancer and had their testies removed, some women have hysterectomies - preganancy will never be the natural outcome for them.



    >>>>

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    No, it is not.

    Again:
    1) Non-procreative sex does not actually impede anyone, in any way, from subsequently choosing to engage in sex-for-procreation.
    2) There is no moral obligation for humans to reproduce.

    For example, if we allowed dogs to pursue their "natural ends," they would have still be wolves. Instead, thousands of years ago we domesticated them, and have tuned their abilities to a phenomenal extent. It is not immoral to raise dogs to be pets, to assist the blind, to herd sheep or to protect a building on the basis that doing so somehow "impedes" their "natural end."

    Similarly, it is not immoral to spay or neuter dogs, because one of their "natural ends" is to reproduce. In fact, we generally regard it as more compassionate and humane to spay/neuter dogs and cats, because so many of their offspring end up unwanted and abandoned.
    Contraception impedes the natural end of the specific sex act.

    Animals exist for the benefit of mankind. So the things you mention are not against their natural end.

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