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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #171
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I believe marriage licenses should be treated as a contract and obtained through an attorney, taking the government totally out of the equation.

    It takes the government out of the "creation" equation.

    It does not take the government out of the "recognition" equation.



    It last count there were 1,138 rights, responsibilities and benefits tied to legal recognition of Civil Marriage. Figure 300 or so per State and that's over 16,000 actions by government contingent on recognition of Civil Marriage.



    >>>>

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Then you're arguing that people are indeed powerless to remove the government from their lives once they have involved themselves in it. Why even be interested in politics at all if that is your view?
    It's not that people are powerless, it is that the majority DON'T want to do it. It's been that way for decades and decades to come. Yes, the minority that wants the change IS powerless as long as the Dems and Reps are in charge.

    Year after year after year we see the left and right put their faith in Dems and Reps and they ALWAYS let us down. It's the reality that unless there is a collapse of government entirely or an invasion, no, there will not be any significant change.

    But hey, you keep hoping for candy and lolipops with the Dems and Reps ok?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Wow, I didnt know the suit was for all that. I definately support it. It is going against every law NC has that prohibits SSM.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The problem with it is that the government is in charge of the contract and can change it at any time without the input from those held to it.

    Of course, I'm against all licensing by the state as it provides the state an outlet to regulate people and control property.
    First of all, this government does have to respond to all those married couples out there who have a vested and direct interest in the change - this isn't obscure corporate tax law we're talking about. And if you don't like the changes, you can amend the contract with that same lawyer you'd like to waste time and money drawing up the standard version, or not get married at all.

    Libertarians just have an ideological opposition to all things government. It's tough to debate against that, because libertarians ignore the benefits and only see the "control!!!" part, which they oppose on ideological grounds, not practical ones. The rest of us are quite happy to get a standard contract, with well defined rights and obligations, for a filing fee. I guess you'd rather spend a month reading drafts of this 100 page document, discussing terms with your spouse like a business contract, (of course she's need her own lawyer...) revisions, etc. and then presenting this long document every time you want to get a credit card, mortgage, go sign your child up for school (does YOUR contract require you both sign the papers???) etc.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    It's not that people are powerless, it is that the majority DON'T want to do it. It's been that way for decades and decades to come. Yes, the minority that wants the change IS powerless as long as the Dems and Reps are in charge.

    Year after year after year we see the left and right put their faith in Dems and Reps and they ALWAYS let us down. It's the reality that unless there is a collapse of government entirely or an invasion, no, there will not be any significant change.

    But hey, you keep hoping for candy and lolipops with the Dems and Reps ok?
    You were actually right the first time. There is two problems with getting government out of anything.

    1. Government doesn't give up authority once it has that authority unless you give it something else in exchange that it benefits from to a greater degree.

    2. The people to a large degree want a very large government that involves itself in every outlet of the peoples lives. Sure, they might want things like pot to be legal, but they don't want to be left alone on decisions regarding pot.

    Marriage is just more of the same really. People feel as if they benefit from government being involved and feel that without it they would get abused. Of course, there is no reason to expect that any of that makes sense.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    I have to read more about that. No Church should ever be forced to conduct any ceremony it does not beleive in, nor prevented from performing a service it does. Why havent I heard about this outrage? I watch Fox all the time.
    Is Fox News the only news organization with an obligation to inform you?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Marriage is just more of the same really. People feel as if they benefit from government being involved and feel that without it they would get abused. Of course, there is no reason to expect that any of that makes sense.
    In the case of SSM versus marriage they are correct on that too. Right now, there are many rights automatically granted to heterosexual couples that marry whereas SSM couples have to jump through hoops to get those rights through paperwork, witness fees, etc. and still don't get all the same rights.

    I would have NO PROBLEM with the government getting out of marriage, but it simply isn't going to happen in the natural course of our system the way it is now.

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    It is just funny what they choose to be all outraged about. Really funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Is Fox News the only news organization with an obligation to inform you?
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Yeah, I don't see it.

    There is no moral requirement to have sex exclusively for procreative purposes, or for everyone to have children, or to have as many children as physically possible.

    "Natural ends" are irrelevant. Reproduction solely for the sake of reproduction is not an ethical principle. It is a choice that an individual can make, and a biological impulse, but there is no requirement to reproduce so that your children can reproduce, and their children can reproduce, and so on.

    If I have sex purely to engage in pleasure, this in and of itself causes no harm. It does not stop me from having sex at some other time in order to procreate. It does not convince me not to have children at some later date. It does not change my neighbor's mental calculus about whether or not s/he should have children.

    One of the problems that California's Prop 8 had in court, by the way, was precisely this issue -- its defenders were incapable of explaining how any straight marriages were actually harmed, let alone altered, by allowing same-sex marriage.

    It's not a zero-sum game. The decision to pursue sex for pleasure does not prevent or exclude sex for procreation. No harm, no foul, no justification for regulation.
    When one deliberately impedes the natural end of an act, that is a moral deficiency, is it not?

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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    It is just funny what they choose to be all outraged about. Really funny.
    Well, so obviously there is outrage o'plenty on ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, NYT, LAT and so on, right? You are just learning about this, I assume, because you only watch Fox News?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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