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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Do I think it's constitutional for a law to require a priest give up their ability to solemnize a marriage if they refused to conduct private marriage ceremonies between two homosexuals? Absolutely not.

    Similarly, it's not constitutional to require a priest give up their ability to solemnize a marriage if they did conduct a privaet marriage ceremony between two homosexuals.

    There shouldn't be a law concerning what private religious ceremonies a priest does or does not do as long as such ceremonies are not somehow a violation of another law.

    I support this constitutional challenge. If a church wishes to privately marry two people of the same sex in a religious ceremony they should absolutely have the ability to do so without having negative reprucussions from the state.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    51-6. Solemnization without license unlawful.

    No minister, officer, or any other person authorized to solemnize a marriage under the laws of this State shall perform a ceremony of marriage between a man and woman, or shall declare them to be husband and wife, until there is delivered to that person a license for the marriage of the said persons, signed by the register of deeds of the county in which the marriage license was issued or by a lawful deputy or assistant. There must be at least two witnesses to the marriage ceremony.


    Since same-sex ceremonies involve a man and a man or a woman and a woman, such ceremonies are not in violation of the law because they are not man and a woman ceremonies.



    >>>>
    OK, what you have been saying has finally sunk into my slow thinking head. Now I will have to find out the actual wording of the lawsuit to see if it does cover opposite sex weddings as well. However, I still disagree about it being thrown out. I think the judge should make NC change 51-7 to mirror the wording in 51-6.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    It does prevent them from performing a religous marriage. It is illegal for them to perform purely religious marriages. I have been looking for wording of the actual lawsuit but we only get what people are reporting.

    It's only illegal (based on actually reading the law) for them to perform a purely religious ceremony for different-sex couples. Still potentially a violation of the 1st Amendment, but it doesn't apply to same-sex couples and therefore isn't a logical basis to attempt to overturn a ban on Same-sex Civil Marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    Telling a minister they cant perform a ceremony in their own church is also a violation. Everyone else covered by the law is irrevelant because a violation of Freedom of Religion is what the lawsuit is about.
    Supposedly the law is about attempting to overturn the NC Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex Civil Marriage because it prevents ministers from conducting religious ceremonies for same-sex couples. The problem is...

    1. The Constitutional Amendment doesn't do what is claimed in the news stories.

    2. Nor does the statutory law do what is claimed in the news stories.



    >>>>

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    It's only illegal (based on actually reading the law) for them to perform a purely religious ceremony for different-sex couples. Still potentially a violation of the 1st Amendment, but it doesn't apply to same-sex couples and therefore isn't a logical basis to attempt to overturn a ban on Same-sex Civil Marriage.

    Supposedly the law is about attempting to overturn the NC Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex Civil Marriage because it prevents ministers from conducting religious ceremonies for same-sex couples. The problem is...

    1. The Constitutional Amendment doesn't do what is claimed in the news stories.

    2. Nor does the statutory law do what is claimed in the news stories.

    >>>>
    Yeah, in an above post, I finally caught on to what you were saying.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    OK, what you have been saying has finally sunk into my slow thinking head. Now I will have to find out the actual wording of the lawsuit to see if it does cover opposite sex weddings as well. However, I still disagree about it being thrown out. I think the judge should make NC change 51-7 to mirror the wording in 51-6.
    The law is wrong either way, whether it covers same sex couples or not. It needs to be challenged. It is still a constitutional violation. And if it does not cover same sex couples, then it just adds to what makes it a constitutional violation, since it would then punish only clergy members that give opposite sex couples a private religious ceremony based solely on their relative sexes/genders.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The law is wrong either way, whether it covers same sex couples or not. It needs to be challenged. It is still a constitutional violation. And if it does not cover same sex couples, then it just adds to what makes it a constitutional violation, since it would then punish only clergy members that give opposite sex couples a private religious ceremony based solely on their relative sexes/genders.
    I meant IF the lawsuit is only about same sex marriage as it is being implied in the news, then at least the changes I noted should occur. I do hope the actual lawsuit is about every marriage combination and the law is overturned.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Umm.. UCC is from the Evangelical (and) Reformed Church which was founded in 1747 by German and Swiss immigrants. Where their main driver was the Mercerburg Theology movement (I'll get back to that) and Congregational Christian Church started in 1937 in Seattle. Then there were other CC groups created as well.

    And the UCC is very small about 900,000 members. Most of the members actually live in the Northeast and ironically, President Obama is a member.

    The Mercerburg movement (accepting some Catholic ideas) gained ground after Franklin college and Marshall college joined together in 1849 and became Franklin and Marshall college.
    The E&R Church was one of the churches, yes. In 1957, 3 or 4 small denominations "United" into one - thus the name "United Church of Christ." President Obama is, or at least was a member. As am I. I may have some of the history off slightly, but Congregational was one of them (and there have been a few different churches that have claimed that label). Most old "Congregational" churches were independent, or very, very loosely bound together. Some chose not to join the UCC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    OK, what you have been saying has finally sunk into my slow thinking head. Now I will have to find out the actual wording of the lawsuit to see if it does cover opposite sex weddings as well. However, I still disagree about it being thrown out. I think the judge should make NC change 51-7 to mirror the wording in 51-6.

    http://uccfiles.com/pdf/complaint.pdf



    >>>>

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Marriage is both a legal contract and private relationship. That is a fact.
    Which supports what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You haven't been forced to approve. If people change their minds, that's their business. "Approval of sodomy" is not measurable harm.

    North Carolina isn't treating all religions equally. They are fining ministers for holding a private ceremony if the state doesn't approve of that ceremony. You still don't seem to grasp this, it's not a "fraudulent marriage," it's not a legal marriage as far as the state is concerned. Therefore it's just a private ceremony the state is stepping into.


    So don't get married, then. If you don't want to, that's your choice. But you still haven't demonstrated any kind of harm caused by two men signing a legal contract with each other.
    I didn't claim an individual was forced to approve.

    Does the law in North Carolina differentiate between religions?

    What on Earth are you talking about?

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    I meant IF the lawsuit is only about same sex marriage as it is being implied in the news, then at least the changes I noted should occur. I do hope the actual lawsuit is about every marriage combination and the law is overturned.
    If it doesn't cover same sex couples, then it will not likely go far. But then I also think that this at least shakes up the whole (horribly ridiculous, yet often used) premise that allowing same sex marriages violates freedom of religion (because it would force clergy to perform same sex weddings, eventhough it doesn't) but rather the opposite is or at least can be true, that by not allowing same sex marriages, it is more likely to violate freedom of religion. In fact, religious beliefs as part of marriage was even mentioned in at least one SCOTUS decision.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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