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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

  1. #121
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm not sure about that. Someone will have to explain why the penalty of $200 and/or a Class 1 misdemeanor isn't appropriate for a SSM ceremony. They can't get a license, as required, and can't perform any ceremony without a license. If they do they're subject to fine and charged with a crime.
    It violates the 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion to require any religious official or really anyone at all to be penalized for not having a license to perform a religious ceremony. It would be one thing to penalize them for signing a marriage license that the religious official knew was false or sign it falsely/under false conditions. This is not that. In order for any marriage to be legal, it requires a) the marriage is not prohibited by the laws of the state and b) (in most cases at least) that the marriage license be signed and filed with the state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #122
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Marriage is a legal institution. Against a fact there is no argument.
    Marriage is both a legal contract and private relationship. That is a fact.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #123
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Why don't you tell me exactly how you are harmed. I agree with you that gay marriage is not traditional, but I also recognize that it is none of my damn business, nor that of the government.
    Marriages as they are in the US (and the West in general) are not traditional. We choose are mates, and that choice is most often based on love. Our families have very little say (for most of us) in who we marry. Women have equal rights in a marriage to men. We can divorce without having to prove any extreme circumstance necessitates that divorce.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #124
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Government issued marriage licenses are more evidence of too much government in our private lives.
    They are government contracts that establish relationships of legal kinship. They are very much akin to adoption paperwork and/or birth certificates, which do much the same thing, just with less laws that pertaining to those relationship statuses.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #125
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Are you really claiming that laws like this don't make sodomy societally approved of to a greater degree?
    You haven't been forced to approve. If people change their minds, that's their business. "Approval of sodomy" is not measurable harm.
    Insofar as the government treats all religions as equal, I don't see how they could practically be avoided.
    North Carolina isn't treating all religions equally. They are fining ministers for holding a private ceremony if the state doesn't approve of that ceremony. You still don't seem to grasp this, it's not a "fraudulent marriage," it's not a legal marriage as far as the state is concerned. Therefore it's just a private ceremony the state is stepping into.

    The modern licensing scheme was designed by secular governments, not by the Church.
    So don't get married, then. If you don't want to, that's your choice. But you still haven't demonstrated any kind of harm caused by two men signing a legal contract with each other.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  6. #126
    Educator Amandi's Avatar
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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Even when it involves marrying children? That is what I linked to, which you are now agreeing with.
    I believe in making laws that cover the situation and not making blanket laws. If an act isnt herantly wrong then there should not be a law and the laws should focus on the abuse of the act.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Oh Jeez...more religious and LGBT stuff.

    My solution?

    1) End tax free status for ALL religions...which hopefully leads to a severe weakening of these dinosaur institutions. You want to believe in a 'god'...go ahead. But please stop trying to ram your ideas down everyone's throats.

    2) Make it federally legal for any two sane adults to be able to marry each other. Where this utter nonsense about the government being able to dictate who people can marry is beyond me...but probably major religions played/play a big part in it.

    Enough of these silly religious/gay marriage debates and let's please just get on with fixing the mess that is becoming America.


    (And yeah, yeah...I realize this religious group in this thread are for gay marriage. My point still stands)
    Last edited by DA60; 05-01-14 at 11:15 AM.

  8. #128
    Educator Amandi's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Then the lawsuit brought by the Church should have made a claim about being able to perform a man-woman Religious Marriage without a Civil License being issues. That would be a valid claim that the law is infringing on their ability to perform a religious ceremony without government intervention.

    However the law does not prevent them from performing a Religious Marriage for a same-sex couple so the law in fact does not limit their ability to perform that ceremony.

    >>>>
    It does prevent them from performing a religous marriage. It is illegal for them to perform purely religious marriages. I have been looking for wording of the actual lawsuit but we only get what people are reporting.

  9. #129
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    Re: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You know there's more than one polygamist compound secretly praying for this lawsuit to win....
    • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YFZ_Ranch
    • http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/08/abuse-investigated-at-polygamist-compound-after-400-removed/
    • http://www.buzzfeed.com/erinlarosa/19-things-you-probably-dont-know-about-flds-polygamists

    ...and I bet a few Indian reservations would be happy as well.
    There should be no laws limiting or punishing religious ceremonies from being performed unless those ceremonies themselves can be shown to be harmful (such as a ceremony requiring a person or animal to be sacrificed or harmed).

    I actually am against fully equal legalization of polygamy at this time (there are a lot of bugs to work out with the logistics of multiple spouses in a marriage, if they even could be worked out), but they should still be allowed to have a religious ceremony if they wish. That does not require that any person not be held accountable for not obeying/following age of consent laws (or any laws that prohibit some intimate relationship between people when those laws are constitutionally valid). And this is one reason I think that marriages should only be allowed for those 18 and older in any state, because it would ensure that marriage does not conflict with age of consent laws, because all marriages would happen above the age of consent for all states anyway.

    In fact, I feel that any law like this should be challenged on the very fact that it violates the 1st Amendment/Freedom of religion and Freedom of speech laws and that it does so for everyone, gays and straights, couples and those in poly relationships, and others, even some who simply do not wish to get legally married but do wish to be married in the eyes of their god.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #130
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They're not telling the church they can't do it. They're telling everyone who officiates marriages they can't do it. The church isn't being singled out. If an atheist group so authorized to officiate weddings wanted to give a ceremony to a gay couple, that atheist group couldn't do it either, and for the same reasons under the same law.

    All a person or group has to do is drop their authority to officiate a marriage and then they can do whatever they want.
    Telling a minister they cant perform a ceremony in their own church is also a violation. Everyone else covered by the law is irrevelant because a violation of Freedom of Religion is what the lawsuit is about.

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