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Thread: United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I am not personally harmed, however society is harmed by the acceptance of immorality. And the government has the right to protect the common good.



    It's not a fallacy.

    A sanction of marriage is a sanction of sexual activity between the married couple. For same-sex couples, this necessarily means sodomy.
    You want to explain to me how society is harmed? I just don't see it. However, I do see someone in favor of the establishment of a religion here, which is unconstitutional. If one church is allowed to perform heterosexual wedding ceremonies, but another church that, based on their own religious beliefs, is not allowed to perform gay wedding ceremonies, then their first amendment freedom of religion has been violated. It's as simple as that.
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I am not personally harmed, however society is harmed by the acceptance of immorality. And the government has the right to protect the common good.



    It's not a fallacy.

    A sanction of marriage is a sanction of sexual activity between the married couple. For same-sex couples, this necessarily means sodomy.
    And monagamous sex between two men causes what sort of harm, exactly?
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    You want to explain to me how society is harmed? I just don't see it. However, I do see someone in favor of the establishment of a religion here, which is unconstitutional. If one church is allowed to perform heterosexual wedding ceremonies, but another church that, based on their own religious beliefs, is not allowed to perform gay wedding ceremonies, then their first amendment freedom of religion has been violated. It's as simple as that.
    It damages societal mores by causing them to accept sodomy.

    They do not have a religious right to officiate a legal marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    And monagamous sex between two men causes what sort of harm, exactly?
    It damages social mores.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    UCC ministers are, in fact, ministers. Same as Lutherans or Baptists. The UCC isn't one of those "back of the Rolling Stone get ordained classified ad" deals. In fact one of the spiritual progenitors, and one of the churches that "United" into the UCC, was the Congregational Church of the Plymouth Pilgrims (you know, the Thanksgiving ones). The church that I've been a member of reflects this in it's name - Mayflower. (Though I think my wife got them in the divorce).
    Umm.. UCC is from the Evangelical (and) Reformed Church which was founded in 1747 by German and Swiss immigrants. Where their main driver was the Mercerburg Theology movement (I'll get back to that) and Congregational Christian Church started in 1937 in Seattle. Then there were other CC groups created as well.

    And the UCC is very small about 900,000 members. Most of the members actually live in the Northeast and ironically, President Obama is a member.

    The Mercerburg movement (accepting some Catholic ideas) gained ground after Franklin college and Marshall college joined together in 1849 and became Franklin and Marshall college.
    Last edited by austrianecon; 04-30-14 at 11:08 PM.
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    It damages societal mores by causing them to accept sodomy.

    They do not have a religious right to officiate a legal marriage.



    It damages social mores.
    Yes they do. And you are promoting the establishment of a religion when you deny a recognized mainstream church from practicing their faith.
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    It damages societal mores by causing them to accept sodomy.


    It damages social mores
    Still non-specific, unidentified "harm" to a concept rather than something substantive. This is why your side lost before the Supreme Court. "Societal mores" is not a person, place, or thing that can have some measurable harm caused to it. It's just a vague concept you base on your own personal opinion and wish to force upon the rest of society. Contrary to the core principles of the United States of America, I might add.

    Same-sex marriage is legal in many states, and sodomy is legal in all of them. Are you telling me this has caused you to accept sodomy?

    They do not have a religious right to officiate a legal marriage.
    .
    The marriage in question was not a legal marriage. It was just a private ceremony, which you think should be illegal despite the existence of the first amendment. Clearly, your perception of the first amendment means only the freedom to practice religion when it conforms to your idea of Christianity.
    Last edited by Deuce; 04-30-14 at 11:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    We have no reason not to believe him. [North Korean Dictator and Mass Murder Kim Jong-Un] has been very honest and accommodating.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    If a person presides over a marriage which is plainly invalid by law, they should be punished. UCC ministers (who aren't priests, BTW) are not above the law.
    Government issued marriage licenses are more evidence of too much government in our private lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Government issued marriage licenses are more evidence of too much government in our private lives.

    So you don't want the government issuing marriage licenses. OK, I can hang with that. Marriages would be performed by religious organizations and all such marriages (same-sex or different-sex) would be recognized equally by the government for Civil Law purposes in establishing a legal family spousal relationship and next of kin where one did not exist before.

    That means that if a different-sex couple get married in a Baptist Church - the government recognizes them as married.

    If a same-sex couple get married in a UCC Church - the government recognizes them as married.



    Atheist of course would not be able to get married because as of now they would have to go to a Mayor, Judge, County Clerk, Justice of the Peace, etc. that are functioning in a government capacity to perform non-religious marriages, since the government would't be doning marriage - those people couldn't perform them anymore. But we'll just ignore them in the context of your statement.


    *************************

    That OK with you? All marriages performed my ministers of the clergy for their respective organizations are recognized equally?



    >>>>

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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Government issued marriage licenses are more evidence of too much government in our private lives.
    I agree with you on that. When our forefathers got married, they didn't get a license. They had a wedding ceremony, and they were married. Marriage licenses were invented in Medieval Europe as a way For the Church to extort money from people, but in the colonies which later became the United States, it began as a way to separate the races. Each state had their own rules, and most states did not grant licenses to a couple, one of whom was white, and the other not.

    Beyond that, I would argue that marriage is a fundamental right, not a privilege, and the government has no business regulating it.
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    Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Yes they do. And you are promoting the establishment of a religion when you deny a recognized mainstream church from practicing their faith.
    No they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Still non-specific, unidentified "harm" to a concept rather than something substantive. This is why your side lost before the Supreme Court. "Societal mores" is not a person, place, or thing that can have some measurable harm caused to it. It's just a vague concept you base on your own personal opinion and wish to force upon the rest of society. Contrary to the core principles of the United States of America, I might add.

    Same-sex marriage is legal in many states, and sodomy is legal in all of them. Are you telling me this has caused you to accept sodomy?



    The marriage in question was not a legal marriage. It was just a private ceremony, which you think should be illegal despite the existence of the first amendment. Clearly, your perception of the first amendment means only the freedom to practice religion when it conforms to your idea of Christianity.
    Are you really claiming that laws like this don't make sodomy societally approved of to a greater degree?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Government issued marriage licenses are more evidence of too much government in our private lives.
    Insofar as the government treats all religions as equal, I don't see how they could practically be avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I agree with you on that. When our forefathers got married, they didn't get a license. They had a wedding ceremony, and they were married. Marriage licenses were invented in Medieval Europe as a way For the Church to extort money from people, but in the colonies which later became the United States, it began as a way to separate the races. Each state had their own rules, and most states did not grant licenses to a couple, one of whom was white, and the other not.

    Beyond that, I would argue that marriage is a fundamental right, not a privilege, and the government has no business regulating it.
    The modern licensing scheme was designed by secular governments, not by the Church.

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