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Thread: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly.....[W:696:1188]

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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I have provided his quotes exactly as he made them. So I have removed nothing from them.
    Nor is there any blatant racism in what he said. That is nothing but you hearing what you want to hear.
    His words were of concern, not disparagement and they did not contain any hatred or intolerance.
    But your words clearly do.
    Yes, if I've written accurately my words clearly do.
    And if accusing black people of aborting their young children and sending their young men to jail because they don't know how to pick cotton isn't racism, well, God bless you son because you are so disconnected from reality you may be unable to function in society.
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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No he didn't. Not at all. As his words were not racist.

    And this unintentional argument is absurd on it's surface.
    That involves taking his words out of context which means it is not what he said.




    No.
    This is you hearing, or reading into it, that which you want.
    Incorrect.

    The overall gist of his remarks was as follows:

    "I saw black people once - they are stuck in welfare housing situations, and don't know how to work, they have nothing to do, they abort their children, they have no family structure - I sometimes wonder if they are better off now when compared to slavery times.

    Mexicans at least know how to work, I've worked with them, they have family."

    He is well-meaning, but his assumptions about the situation of black persons disparage them.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Yes really.
    Just because one is not able to express their thoughts clearly and the words antiquated, does not mean they are a racist.
    He was speaking of work ethic, that as a result of welfare, wasn't taught.
    His words, in context, show he was speaking of concern.


    …” and so what I’ve testified to ya’, I was in the WATTS riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen the last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people is thinking they did not have their freedom; they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them.

    We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and sure don’t want to go back; we sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point; we sure don’t want the Mexican people to go back to that point; and we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

    Those are not the words of a racist.
    Tell you what, post the entire dialog here and let the readers judge for themselves if Mr. Bundy spoke from genuine concern or outright foolishness for ourselves? I mean, yourself and a few others have defended him but you've done so third-party. Let the man's words speak in his defense.

    Post the entire dialog - the parts we're apparently missing - or the entire video and maybe I'll change my opinion about him depending on what I hear. Until then, he spoke foolishly, IMO.

    Edit: Nevermind...Zimmerman posted it already (reposted below for emphasis).

    ... and so what I've testified to you -- I was in the Watts riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen that last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people are thinking they don't have their freedoms, they didn't have these things, and they didn't have them.

    We've progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and we sure don't want to go back. We sure don't want the colored people to go back to that point. We sure don't want these Mexican people to go back to that point. And we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

    Let me tell, talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro. When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids -- and there's always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

    And because they were basically on government subsidy -- so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?

    You know they didn’t get more freedom, they got less freedom -- they got less family life, and their happiness -- you could see it in their faces -- they wasn't happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips -- so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.
    Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know, I understand that they come over here against our Constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people -- and I’ve worked side by side a lot of them.

    Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structures than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people. And we need to have those people join us and be with us not, not come to our party.
    Granted, Bundy was speaking from his past experiences and only from what he's seen of Blacks living in government housing out of Los Vegas. But that's been my point concerning his comments: You don't make a blanket statement like that and not expect people to view you as racist at worst, bigoted at best. I can accept your point of view that he was in his own way speaking out of concern for Blacks (and Mexicans, too), but as I stated previously, he'd been better off using "sharecropping" or "minimum wage jobs" over slavery. That word doesn't come up as a way Black families can unify or excel in life unless you harbor racist or bigoted views.

    Sorry, he doesn't get such a easy pass from me. But I can understand that from his point of view, he was sincere. I just think he can and should keep his opinion on Black family bonding, sense of morality and direction on upward mobility to himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Incorrect.

    The overall gist of his remarks was as follows:

    "I saw black people once - they are stuck in welfare housing situations, and don't know how to work, they have nothing to do, they abort their children, they have no family structure - I sometimes wonder if they are better off now when compared to slavery times.

    Mexicans at least know how to work, I've worked with them, they have family."

    He is well-meaning, but his assumptions about the situation of black persons disparage them.
    Thank you, The Mark. I couldn't have said it better myself.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-01-14 at 11:47 PM.
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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Right, because the GOP doesn't take advantage of ANYONE do they?

    Did you miss the part where I said BOTH sides were at fault?
    Yep, I miss it. Because when it's a question about libs, then it's "both sides" but when it concerns repubs then it's "the GOP" with you.
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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Yes, if I've written accurately my words clearly do.
    And if accusing black people of aborting their young children and sending their young men to jail because they don't know how to pick cotton isn't racism, well, God bless you son because you are so disconnected from reality you may be unable to function in society.
    iLOL

    No, it is you whom is disconnected from reality calling non-racist comments racist.
    It is you, the very person engaged in the definitions of racism, saying the other is doing such when he clearly isn't, that is disengaged from reality.

    He was speaking of the deleterious effects that the welfare state has had on blacks.
    And as a result of the welfare state those things are more prevalent.
    Accusations?
    No.
    He spoke truth from a point of concern.

    Sorry you can't read within context, but instead desire to make false claims.





    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Incorrect.

    The overall gist of his remarks was as follows:

    "I saw black people once - they are stuck in welfare housing situations, and don't know how to work, they have nothing to do, they abort their children, they have no family structure - I sometimes wonder if they are better off now when compared to slavery times.

    Mexicans at least know how to work, I've worked with them, they have family."

    He is well-meaning, but his assumptions about the situation of black persons disparage them.
    Yes you are incorrect.
    He was speaking of the deleterious effects that the welfare state has had on blacks.
    And was speaking from a point of concern. Not of disparagement, or of hatred, or of intolerance. And nowhere did he say his race was better.
    Nothing he said was racist.

    You say you know that, but then say he did, but was unintentional, which is bs.
    There was no racist comments, deliberate or unintentional.
    You have to take them out of context, just like you did above, to suggest otherwise.
    And what you suggest in what you have taken out of context, is equally absurd as that is not what he said or meant.
    Your position you hold is nothing but bs.
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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Tell you what, post the entire dialog here and let the readers judge for themselves if Mr. Bundy spoke from genuine concern or outright foolishness for ourselves?
    1. It has already been done several times. His words are not the words of a racist and can be seen coming from a point of concern.
    2. And while the words are not racist, there are those bigots who will claim they are anyways. We have already seen this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I mean, yourself and a few others have defended him but you've done so third-party. Let the man's words speak in his defense.
    Wrong. It hasn't been third party as his words in full and video has been posted several times now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Post the entire dialog - the parts we're apparently missing - or the entire video and maybe I'll change my opinion about him depending on what I hear.
    Both have already been done several times by various posters including myself.
    So I have no clue as to why you are acting like it hasn't been done?
    His words are not the words of a racist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Until then, he spoke foolishly, IMO.
    Foolishly does not make one, or one's words racist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Edit: Nevermind...Zimmerman posted it already (reposted below for emphasis).
    These arguments appear to be dishonest as it has been done several times. Or isn't that you you haven't really familiarized yourself with the discussion?

    Here is the video that was also previously provided.



    And one that was also previously provided of his body guard expressing his opinion of Bundy not being a racist.



    And here you can see Bundy poorly express again, what he meant.
    And he even says his words came from his heart and stated that he didn't really mean to compare it to slavery.




    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    You don't make a blanket statement like that and not expect people to view you as racist at worst, bigoted at best.
    I don't know about you, but when the comments are not racist as in this case, I only expect bigots to react that way.
    And that expectations has never failed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I can accept your point of view that he was in his own way speaking out of concern for Blacks (and Mexicans, too),
    No.
    That would be you acknowledging his words in context. Or in other words, acknowledging reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    he'd been better off using "sharecropping" or "minimum wage jobs" over slavery.
    I have already said he expressed himself poorly. But being better off using such wording is irrelevant to the false claims of racist/racism.
    Having an inability to properly express himself, and/or not using those terms, does not make him or his comments racist and the actual context made that clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    That word doesn't come up as a way Black families can unify or excel in life unless you harbor racist or bigoted views.
    That is your assumption. Being poor at expressing yourself and using antiquated terms is all it really reflects.
    Which is not racist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Sorry, he doesn't get such a easy pass from me.
    He doesn't need any such pass, as his words were not racist. They were not of disparagement, hatred, or of intolerance.
    They simply were not racist.
    A simple examination of context was all that was needed to understand that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I just think he can and should keep his opinion on Black family bonding, sense of morality and direction on upward mobility to himself.
    You may, and are entitled to think and express just that.
    Just as he is entitled to such.

    My opinion in reference to the above comment, is that the dialog needs to start somewhere and somehow, which would include the underlined.
    It isn't all one sided, and isn't likely going to be a pretty discussion in the beginning.
    But it does need to start, or what ever the issues are, as seen from either side, real or imagined, are not going to be addressed or resolved.
    But for starters, we can start by calling out these false claims of racism and shutting them down when they are made.



    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Thank you, The Mark. I couldn't have said it better myself.
    Sad. His out of context bs is just that.
    Out of context.
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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Yes you are incorrect.
    He was speaking of the deleterious effects that the welfare state has had on blacks.
    And was speaking from a point of concern. Not of disparagement, or of hatred, or of intolerance. And nowhere did he say his race was better.
    Nothing he said was racist.
    Can you please explain why he said "...because they never learned to pick cotton"? Wouldn't that imply that black people, because of their race, are suited to manual labor? Why else would he have said that? Can you also explain why he talks about black people, in general terms, as being hooked on government assistance? The majority of black people are not on welfare, as about 75% are above the poverty line.

    His comments directly imply that (and I'm going to be generous here) most black people living in the United States today have never learned to support themselves because they live off of the government. I see two valid conclusions, which are that Bundy is ignorant and was brought up in a racist environment, or that he is racist. I don't see any other explanation.
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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    And around and around we go.
    Another failed argument from you.
    You are wrong again.
    You clearly do not understand what you have read or what those numbers represent, even though it has already been pointed out to you by two different people.
    Nothing you said above is accurate.

    No there is not 39.8 percent of blacks on welfare, and no there is not 38.8 percent of whites on welfare.
    You clearly do not understand the numbers that you yourself chose to use.

    As you were already told, by that sites numbers, 4.1% of the population is on welfare.
    Of that 4.1%, 39.8 percent is black, and 38.8 percent is white.
    Those numbers were broken down and given to you, twice.


    And then also in the following post, which I even went further in breaking down the numbers for you.


    And I am not the only one who pointed out how you were wrong.
    Yet here you are absurdly claiming otherwise.

    Your position is untenable and your argument fails and is wrong and you keep showing that you do not even understand what those percentages represent, even though it has been explained to you.
    Hey CON. you provided the stats, not I, from your weak link statistic drain, now you're backing up on that like a floor sewer. But, I expected that, and nothing less from a CON. Please do keep up the dogwhistling and play the game, we know all about your kind.

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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    1. It has already been done several times. His words are not the words of a racist and can be seen coming from a point of concern.
    2. And while the words are not racist, there are those bigots who will claim they are anyways. We have already seen this.


    Wrong. It hasn't been third party as his words in full and video has been posted several times now.


    Both have already been done several times by various posters including myself.
    So I have no clue as to why you are acting like it hasn't been done?
    His words are not the words of a racist.



    Foolishly does not make one, or one's words racist.


    These arguments appear to be dishonest as it has been done several times. Or isn't that you you haven't really familiarized yourself with the discussion?

    Here is the video that was also previously provided.



    And one that was also previously provided of his body guard expressing his opinion of Bundy not being a racist.



    And here you can see Bundy poorly express again, what he meant.
    And he even says his words came from his heart and stated that he didn't really mean to compare it to slavery.




    I don't know about you, but when the comments are not racist as in this case, I only expect bigots to react that way.
    And that expectations has never failed.


    No.
    That would be you acknowledging his words in context. Or in other words, acknowledging reality.


    I have already said he expressed himself poorly. But being better off using such wording is irrelevant to the false claims of racist/racism.
    Having an inability to properly express himself, and/or not using those terms, does not make him or his comments racist and the actual context made that clear.


    That is your assumption. Being poor at expressing yourself and using antiquated terms is all it really reflects.
    Which is not racist.



    He doesn't need any such pass, as his words were not racist. They were not of disparagement, hatred, or of intolerance.
    They simply were not racist.
    A simple examination of context was all that was needed to understand that.


    You may, and are entitled to think and express just that.
    Just as he is entitled to such.

    My opinion in reference to the above comment, is that the dialog needs to start somewhere and somehow, which would include the underlined.
    It isn't all one sided, and isn't likely going to be a pretty discussion in the beginning.
    But it does need to start, or what ever the issues are, as seen from either side, real or imagined, are not going to be addressed or resolved.
    But for starters, we can start by calling out these false claims of racism and shutting them down when they are made.



    Sad. His out of context bs is just that.
    Out of context.
    Just from a uneducated podunk hick who never left the farm.

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    Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’

    The RW has defined racism as something very difficult to achieve. So they cant be racist. And yes, we pretty much do speak different languages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Like I said to the 'Zimmer' entity, if you say the jerk who said this...

    "And because they were basically on government subsidy -- so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?"

    ... and meant it isn't a racist then we're speaking different languages.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

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