A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

mak2 said:

I can't. I make too much money and have insurance. I often wonder if that too is not a mistake. Why not take us all and the money and build better facilities with the income.

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Why re-invent the wheel? Why try and build another hospital system and duplicate over head costs?

If all the chest thumping civilians want to do more than rant about Congress or the 'government' REALLY want say thank you to those who went while they had 'better' things to do...

Why not a voucher system for vets? Why not use the health care system we have instead of trying to expand the VA? Why not let the VA concentrate on the wounded, service connected disability, and those who can't get insurance on their own.

Most of us have made a good life after service, why give that all up in order to get some of our Veteran Benefits...

Just between us vets... I don't hold out much hope that the never served ranters are going to do more than vent their collective spleens, demand someone gets frog marched and shot...

But I have grown tired of Vet benefits being a last resort rather than a thank you package... eace

VanceMack said:

I agree with much of what you said. There is another component that has made getting on VA disability ever more attractive. Concurrent Disability.

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For retirees, perhaps... but the VAST majority of vets didn't do 20- certainly few grunts do. I've heard the retiree rate was between 5 to 15%. Increasing the possible compensation package for a very few vets probably falls into more lip service than benefit for most vets.

I have noticed an uptick in veteran service support- a cannon cocker friend of mine got a small disability approval for cold weather injury he had in Germany, he didn't do the 20 but was awarded a disability anyway.

notquiteright said:

For retirees, perhaps... but the VAST majority of vets didn't do 20- certainly few grunts do. I've heard the retiree rate was between 5 to 15%. Increasing the possible compensation package for a very few vets probably falls into more lip service than benefit for most vets.

I have noticed an uptick in veteran service support- a cannon cocker friend of mine got a small disability approval for cold weather injury he had in Germany, he didn't do the 20 but was awarded a disability anyway.

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For most folk, it depends on what you have documented while you are on active duty. Even if you get a disability rating of 0 its a gateway into service.

The VA is needed. Unfortunately...they are simply burying it with programs. Every new program has an administrative team. Once those dug in...its damn near impossible to get rid of them. I work with the VA in several capacities very closely and have nothing but love and respect for most of the people I work with. Doesnt mean there arent some real heavy duty problems. And I could add my own horror stories to the book.

Deuce said:

Republicans are the ones slashing budgets. Why do you vote for the people who are literally murdering veterans in their sleep?

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Those crazy Republicans are murdering sleeping people again? :shock:

How did a story as serious as this one where men who served our country died because of terrible bureaucracy become fodder for partisan digs?

tres borrachos said:

Those crazy Republicans are murdering sleeping people again? How did a story as serious as this one where men who served our country died because of terrible bureaucracy become fodder for partisan digs?

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I have to laugh at your rather limp attempt to show umbrage for 'partisanship'... :roll:

Did ya miss all the 'Obamacare' attacks attempting to use 'a story as serious as this one where men who served our country died' to make off topic wails/rants/whines???? :doh

You seem highly partisan on your upset over partisan digs... :2wave:

The process for bringing those responsible for the terrible tragedy at the Phoenix VA facility is now getting underway. From CNN:

The director of the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system and two others have been placed on administrative leave amid claims of a secret waiting list used to hide delays in care that resulted in the death of U.S. veterans...

Those placed on leave, according to the statement, are Phoenix VA Director Sharon Helman, Associate Director Lance Robinson and a third employee, who was not identified by name.

Phoenix VA officials put on leave after denial of secret wait list - CNN.com

I hope CNN stays on top of this. Often management really, really screws up and just disappears for a while and pops up in a better jobs far away. I hope these goof balls dont get away with it. If they make examples of this bunch, it will help nationwide.

notquiteright said:

For retirees, perhaps... but the VAST majority of vets didn't do 20- certainly few grunts do. I've heard the retiree rate was between 5 to 15%. Increasing the possible compensation package for a very few vets probably falls into more lip service than benefit for most vets.

I have noticed an uptick in veteran service support- a cannon cocker friend of mine got a small disability approval for cold weather injury he had in Germany, he didn't do the 20 but was awarded a disability anyway.

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The way I understand military disability to work, it doesn't matter if you sign on the line on Monday, and you get injured on Friday, you are eligible for disability, if the injury is disabling.

donsutherland1 said:

The process for bringing those responsible for the terrible tragedy at the Phoenix VA facility is now getting underway. From CNN:

The director of the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system and two others have been placed on administrative leave amid claims of a secret waiting list used to hide delays in care that resulted in the death of U.S. veterans...

Those placed on leave, according to the statement, are Phoenix VA Director Sharon Helman, Associate Director Lance Robinson and a third employee, who was not identified by name.

Phoenix VA officials put on leave after denial of secret wait list - CNN.com

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I hope it's a permanent leave.

Superfly said:

The way I understand military disability to work, it doesn't matter if you sign on the line on Monday, and you get injured on Friday, you are eligible for disability, if the injury is disabling.

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Disability is a catch-all term. Frostbite but you are a return to active duty gets, say, 10%, a knife wound 20%, break your leg but return to duty 15%, etc... I didn't know a service related injury but returned to duty and not doing 20 would qualify you for a partial disability until my artillery buddy got a paycheck. Until then I had only heard of those the army released from duty or upon retirement listed all their injuries and tried for a disability check to supplement their retirement. A MSG who started in WWII got 80% from all his injuries, a Vietnam draftee who went on to 'age out' of the Guard got 40% are some of the examples I know about firsthand.

Suffer wounds, injury, illness that forces you from active duty is what you are thinking of, and back when I went through training until you graduated Basic you didn't qualify for disability.

Have a laundry list of documented on duty injuries and you can get a very high disability paycheck but be, by most standards, fit for civilian work (or most in the rear with the gear military jobs)

It's an odd deal, I can't say I understand it all... eace

notquiteright said:

Disability is a catch-all term. Frostbite but you are a return to active duty gets, say, 10%, a knife wound 20%, break your leg but return to duty 15%, etc... I didn't know a service related injury but returned to duty and not doing 20 would qualify you for a partial disability until my artillery buddy got a paycheck. Until then I had only heard of those the army released from duty or upon retirement listed all their injuries and tried for a disability check to supplement their retirement. A MSG who started in WWII got 80% from all his injuries, a Vietnam draftee who went on to 'age out' of the Guard got 40% are some of the examples I know about firsthand.

Suffer wounds, injury, illness that forces you from active duty is what you are thinking of, and back when I went through training until you graduated Basic you didn't qualify for disability.

Have a laundry list of documented on duty injuries and you can get a very high disability paycheck but be, by most standards, fit for civilian work (or most in the rear with the gear military jobs)

It's an odd deal, I can't say I understand it all... eace

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I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean. I do know that you cannot be active duty and be receiving a disability check at the same time. It's fraud. And unless this is something new, you don't have to graduate basic to qualify for disability. You could be in basic one day and be injured, and be eligible for disability - again, that is unless things have changed.

And the 20 year mark has nothing to do with disability at all. The longer you are in, the better chance you have of something being military-related that happens to you, and it has to be service connected. But the thing is, everything in the military is service connected. If you are an MP and you have a car accident chasing a suspect, and that car accident leaves you with a limp, you have a service connected disability. If you slip and fall in a puddle of water at the PX and you broke your knee, and you were unable to perform your duties, you would be service-connected disabled. If you have repeated ear infections and have permanent, profound hearing loss, and cannot perform your duties, you are service-connected disabled. They can try to reclassify you, but depending on the severity of your condition, that may not work, either.

There is no clear-cut definition of what is disabled, but one thing is for sure - if it happens while you are in the military, there is a 99.9% chance that your injuries are service connected, and compensable.

Getting them to admit it, and pay you for it? That's up to you. Not them. The VA will never admit that anything that happens to you is a result of service connection. You have to pull your SMRs, go through them and find the disability and prove to them that it happened while you were active duty, and that it is service connected. And even then, be prepared for a fight.

notquiteright said:

Disability is a catch-all term. Frostbite but you are a return to active duty gets, say, 10%, a knife wound 20%, break your leg but return to duty 15%, etc... I didn't know a service related injury but returned to duty and not doing 20 would qualify you for a partial disability until my artillery buddy got a paycheck. Until then I had only heard of those the army released from duty or upon retirement listed all their injuries and tried for a disability check to supplement their retirement. A MSG who started in WWII got 80% from all his injuries, a Vietnam draftee who went on to 'age out' of the Guard got 40% are some of the examples I know about firsthand.

Suffer wounds, injury, illness that forces you from active duty is what you are thinking of, and back when I went through training until you graduated Basic you didn't qualify for disability.

Have a laundry list of documented on duty injuries and you can get a very high disability paycheck but be, by most standards, fit for civilian work (or most in the rear with the gear military jobs)

It's an odd deal, I can't say I understand it all... eace

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There's so much abuse in the VA disability bureaucracy, and retired NCO's are a big part of the problem. It seems that almost every one of them sees VA disability as a second paycheck, to supplement their retirement check, so when they retire, they submit dozens if not hundreds of VA disability claims under every category the VA uses for a rating. It's like a lottery for them, hoping they'll strike it rich. Meanwhile, they tie up the system for those with legitimate claims for years, and years. That abuse has to stop. Congress has to put its foot down. These people submitting bogus disability claims in an effort to extort tax dollars need to see the inside of a jail cell. That'd stop much of this abuse.

LowDown said:

For what it's worth, satisfaction with VA care is 90% plus on surveys of veteran patients. Hospital accreditation boards rank VA hospital care as among the best next to private hospitals, the occasional dissatified veteran notwithstanding.

Despite that, or because of it, the waiting times are long. Offer free or cheap care and the demand is going to be high.

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90%? Tell that to my buddy that went in for a routine biopsy and they ran the needle through his heart, cut his chest open to save him with what looks like a chain saw.

pogomutt said:

There's so much abuse in the VA disability bureaucracy, and retired NCO's are a big part of the problem. It seems that almost every one of them sees VA disability as a second paycheck, to supplement their retirement check, so when they retire, they submit dozens if not hundreds of VA disability claims under every category the VA uses for a rating. It's like a lottery for them, hoping they'll strike it rich. Meanwhile, they tie up the system for those with legitimate claims for years, and years. That abuse has to stop. Congress has to put its foot down. These people submitting bogus disability claims in an effort to extort tax dollars need to see the inside of a jail cell. That'd stop much of this abuse.

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I'm not saying this never happens, but all the NCOs would have to have a lot of doctors in their pockets, and even then, they'd have to have the doctors that that VA sends you to, in your pocket as well. There are a lot of checks and balances to be able to be found disabled by VA standards. It's really, really not easy to do, and I truly don't believe that rank gets you any special treatment.

They are still getting paid.

Superfly said:

I hope it's a permanent leave.

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What I see as the problem is somebody that goes in for 2 years, gets out and then runs to the VA medical center for a cold. That's not what it was originally meant for. It was meant for SC-disabled or retirees. Not somebody who spent 2 years in. Now that they have opened up the doors to everybody, it makes it significantly harder to get an appointment with the VA, and THAT is what the thread is all about.

mak2 said:

They are still getting paid.

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SMH. Of course they are. :lol: Why does this not surprise me?

Superfly said:

What I see as the problem is somebody that goes in for 2 years, gets out and then runs to the VA medical center for a cold. That's not what it was originally meant for. It was meant for SC-disabled or retirees. Not somebody who spent 2 years in. Now that they have opened up the doors to everybody, it makes it significantly harder to get an appointment with the VA, and THAT is what the thread is all about.

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After WWII, there were tens of thousands of veterans collecting 100% disability for smoking and drinking. They blamed their own habitual weakness on the military, even though half of them sat on their butts in the states and never went overseas. But there were 16 million WWII-era veterans in this country then. Include their immediate families and relatives and that represents a huge and powerful voting block. Veterans no longer enjoy such political influence. Nearly all those 16 million are dead now.

Superfly said:

I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean. I do know that you cannot be active duty and be receiving a disability check at the same time. It's fraud. And unless this is something new, you don't have to graduate basic to qualify for disability. You could be in basic one day and be injured, and be eligible for disability - again, that is unless things have changed. And the 20 year mark has nothing to do with disability at all. The longer you are in, the better chance you have of something being military-related that happens to you, and it has to be service connected. But the thing is, everything in the military is service connected. If you are an MP and you have a car accident chasing a suspect, and that car accident leaves you with a limp, you have a service connected disability. If you slip and fall in a puddle of water at the PX and you broke your knee, and you were unable to perform your duties, you would be service-connected disabled. If you have repeated ear infections and have permanent, profound hearing loss, and cannot perform your duties, you are service-connected disabled. They can try to reclassify you, but depending on the severity of your condition, that may not work, either. There is no clear-cut definition of what is disabled, but one thing is for sure - if it happens while you are in the military, there is a 99.9% chance that your injuries are service connected, and compensable. Getting them to admit it, and pay you for it? That's up to you. Not them. The VA will never admit that anything that happens to you is a result of service connection. You have to pull your SMRs, go through them and find the disability and prove to them that it happened while you were active duty, and that it is service connected. And even then, be prepared for a fight.

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Ummm actually I meant the millions who serve but don't stay in to do the 20. They voluntarily separate after a hitch or two. THESE are the guys who get injured, are return to duty and then separate without much thought they could get a small check for their injury. I'd say that in my day the concept of disability was only for retirees unless you had a wound that made you unfit for duty.

My artillery buddy did 6 years, and it was just recently he found he could get a check for his case of frostbite. He isn't 'disabled' but he could draw a small check. And the process was easy peasy as the frostbite was in his medical records. Va retrieved his medical records, found the frostbite, filed for him and he gets a check- didn't cost him a dime.

Now times may have changed as I did Basic before 30 round mags were issued- my Basic training had a qualifying date as too many tried the 'fell down the stairs' thing to get out of serving. I also thought if I was off duty and had an accident it was not service connected and wasn't eligible for disability. I also seem to recall a guy who kept getting ear infections- he didn't get anything as they considered that pre-existing. Same with a guy who was in 6 years and one day had a seizure, pre-existing. Flat feet are pre-existing so even if a grunt makes it through Infantry School and later has foot problems- dis-allowed pre-existing.

Given the HUGE PITA dealing with the VA over service connected injuries of my mis-spent youth- where even wounds were not considered if you were a 'return to duty' to my buddy just this year getting a check for frostbite 20 years ago... I'd say something has changed, it would appear for the better.

Here's hoping anyway.

Superfly said:

What I see as the problem is somebody that goes in for 2 years, gets out and then runs to the VA medical center for a cold. That's not what it was originally meant for. It was meant for SC-disabled or retirees. Not somebody who spent 2 years in. Now that they have opened up the doors to everybody, it makes it significantly harder to get an appointment with the VA, and THAT is what the thread is all about.

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It is not open for everybody. There are a lot of qualifying criteria. I work at the VA, was in the Navy for 13 years, and have an honorable discharge but cant use the VA for healthcare.

pogomutt said:

There's so much abuse in the VA disability bureaucracy, and retired NCO's are a big part of the problem. It seems that almost every one of them sees VA disability as a second paycheck, to supplement their retirement check, so when they retire, they submit dozens if not hundreds of VA disability claims under every category the VA uses for a rating. It's like a lottery for them, hoping they'll strike it rich. Meanwhile, they tie up the system for those with legitimate claims for years, and years. That abuse has to stop. Congress has to put its foot down. These people submitting bogus disability claims in an effort to extort tax dollars need to see the inside of a jail cell. That'd stop much of this abuse.

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I have quite a few retirees I see from time to time, they know how to work the system- been in it long enough to know a thing or two about dealing with the military. One retired and a few months later we were partaking of adult beverages and I asked how retirement was working out for him. He was quick to bring up the VA didn't accept a few things for disability and he only got 65%. He was mad as he figured he needed to get a job now. :shock:

I could only smile and welcome him to the private sector. he wasn't happy...

pogomutt said:

After WWII, there were tens of thousands of veterans collecting 100% disability for smoking and drinking. They blamed their own habitual weakness on the military, even though half of them sat on their butts in the states and never went overseas. But there were 16 million WWII-era veterans in this country then. Include their immediate families and relatives and that represents a huge and powerful voting block. Veterans no longer enjoy such political influence. Nearly all those 16 million are dead now.

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Back in the day when I rotated back to CONUS i stopped in to see my grandparents, the guy wasn't my real grand dad but he was ok. Navy Vet WWII. He took me to the VFW, me in all my khaki glory, ropes and medals and crap... strapping young CPL I was... :roll:

I never met more disabled drunks in one place EVER! not a mark on 'em... my 'grand dad' had hearing loss in the Pacific, but the disability came from lungs and liver...

I got a Jarhead acquaintance who got 100% disability for a 2 years stint because he had non something hochkins or some such (never mind it isn't one of the cancers shown to be from Agent Orange and never mind he never served in a sprayed area)... the way that reads is a guy can spend one night in Saigon as a document courier and pretty much any cancer later is service connected. He was livid when VA did a re-eval and dropped him to 70%. IIRC a few years later he was reinstated to 100%

Difficult to get too upset, the regs are the regs. But sometimes as a drunks slurs how vets should be better treated- I should mention I had more booze spilled on me by these vets in one night than i did myself for years after- I have to just grit my teeth and smile...

pogomutt said:

After WWII, there were tens of thousands of veterans collecting 100% disability for smoking and drinking. They blamed their own habitual weakness on the military, even though half of them sat on their butts in the states and never went overseas. But there were 16 million WWII-era veterans in this country then. Include their immediate families and relatives and that represents a huge and powerful voting block. Veterans no longer enjoy such political influence. Nearly all those 16 million are dead now.

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What does going overseas have to do with anything? And is the fact that they didn't go overseas make them any less a veteran? Also, the veteran population is higher now than it was. We have over 21 million veterans now, who also have families and relatives. I'm sure they still vote, and their families vote. I won't say that as many vote now as they did in the 40s and 50s. Times are different now. Lack of viable candidates = apathy within the voters.

Amandi said:

It is not open for everybody. There are a lot of qualifying criteria. I work at the VA, was in the Navy for 13 years, and have an honorable discharge but cant use the VA for healthcare.

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Why? What is your reason for not being able to get healthcare?

When did you join the Navy?

The same reason I cant probalby, the means test.

Superfly said:

Why? What is your reason for not being able to get healthcare?

When did you join the Navy?

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