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A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

Excon said:
Most veterans, and those who take care of them, know how to utilize the system. So something isn't being said here.

If I could base it on visual appearance alone. I would say it is the fault of his family member's for not doing what they should have to get him in.
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I don't believe one should blame the victims of the scheme to falsify the reporting of wait statistics to cover up the excessive waits.

You do not know that. That is apparently what they want you to believe but they didn't back it up, or even say those 40 died because of the wait.
For all we know those forty died of car accidents while on the waiting list.
So like I said, there is a lot of information missing.
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It's probably a fair assumption that delays in medical diagnoses contributed to the deaths. This story was a continuation of earlier reports, one of which stated:

At least 19 veterans have died because of delays in simple medical screenings like colonoscopies or endoscopies, at various VA hospitals or clinics, CNN has learned.

That's according to an internal document from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, obtained exclusively by CNN, that deals with patients diagnosed with cancer in 2010 and 2011... The veterans were part of 82 vets who have died or are dying or have suffered serious injuries as a result of delayed diagnosis or treatment for colonoscopies or endoscopies.

Veterans dying because of health care delays - CNN.com

The link to that story was embedded in the story concerning the Phoenix system in the following paragraph:

For six months, CNN has been reporting on extended delays in health care appointments suffered by veterans across the country and who died while waiting for appointments and care. But the new revelations about the Phoenix VA are perhaps the most disturbing and striking to come to light thus far.
 
donsutherland1 said:
It's "sanctimonious twattle" only if one sees the vets as mere statistics on a piece of paper or a computer screen and nothing more. If one sees the vets as the individual persons they are (or were in the cases of those who died on account of the particular system's deliberate policy), the connections they have to their families and communities, and appreciates the risks and sacrifices they made on behalf of this nation, one cannot but feel outraged over the managers' needless, purposeful, and knowing choices.
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And again, once the administrators have told the central office that their funding isn't adequate and after central office has told them that there isn't any more money then what are the administrators supposed to do? Why should they be put in the position of having to commit Hari Kari? The lack of resources isn't their fault, they've got to do what they can with what they can get. If one set of administrators resigns over it I can guarantee you that nobody will pay any attention. The administrators who come after them will do what they would not.

This scenario gets played out again and again wherever the government is responsible for health care. In Canada I'm sure that the administration knows they could be doing a lot better by their citizens with more resources. It's a year wait to get an MRI for someone suspected of having a brain tumor, and on and on and on with one example after another. Certainly it's the same in Great Britain.

Finally,the U.S. justice system is premised on the notion of individual responsibility, not collective guilt.
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There is no virtue in looking for scapegoats. It might make you feel good to punish officials who couldn't help it, but it is by no means just. You could rightfully hold Congress responsible, but they are immune. Perhaps you think that the system can be made to work right by punishing enough of the administrators, but it can't.

Once the fuforal over this episode passes over and politicians have made the appropriate noises it will be back to business as usual. You can bank on that. Waiting times will be as long as they ever were.

The public needs to make a choice. Either they can have affordable government health care or they can have health care without long wait times, rationing, inadequate facilities, a shortage of care providers, and so on. They can't have both.
 
donsutherland1 said:
For six months, CNN has been reporting on extended delays in health care appointments suffered by veterans across the country and who died while waiting for appointments and care. But the new revelations about the Phoenix VA are perhaps the most disturbing and striking to come to light thus far.
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Yes they framed the story the way they wanted.

To the rest of the story that lacks information ...
As a user of the VA healthcare system, that doesn't excuse those for not doing what they should have done. It is more likely that the family is more at fault for not getting him the care he needed.
 
CRUE CAB said:
If needed call in private practice doctors. Call in private nurses, call in who ever you have to. But to let people suffer and die? No excuse for that.
Go far enough up the chain of command and you will find who to blame.
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There's no money for any of that. It's easy enough to make glib pronouncements about what they should have done without any acknowledgement of what was possible.

Go up the chain all the way to Congress. Congress is immune. Your federal government is sovereign and can't be held accountable except at the ballot box where none of this will matter.

People are suffering on health care waiting lists all over the world. It's a bit silly to get worked up about it at this juncture, after we ourselves have bought into a health care system like that and have subjected veterans to such a health care system for 100 years.

Give it a few years and we'll all be stewing in our own juices. None of this fooforall is going to make any difference.
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

I dont doubt this happens. But you REALLY have to look at this situation with a much broader scope.

The VA healthcare system is NOT designed to, funded to or staffed to provide support of any and every retired military veteran. The absolute reality is that the recipients of VA medical care are SUPPOSED to be limited to people with a service connected disability. If you are a retired servicemember your healthcare is covered under Champus or Tricare. You are supposed to go through your nearest military medical provider or through the system to coordinate a PCM. If you didnt serve your 20 (or were not medically retired) you arent supposed to receive retirement and medical benefits. Thats not right or wrong...its just the way it is.

Unfortunately...thats not what the system has become. They essentially turn no one away. In the name of politics and administration they have created so many new programs that they have as many directors and department heads as they do caregivers. They have a ton of new clients that have been rated disabled due to PTSD, MST, or any number of mental health diagnosis. If you spent even a year in the service and call through the VA system and after 25 years away from the service say "I used to be in the Army...and I think I am going to kill myself" you are going to get seen, get an ID card, and get covered. If you have been out of the service for 40 years and dont have any other coverage than your SSN and medicare benefits you will get in the system, even if what you want to be seen for is not in any way shape or form service connected.

Wonder why they have backlogs getting new clients into the system? They are bombarded with requests. Wonder why they cant see everyone in a timely manner? There simply arent enough facilities, caregivers, and funds. If you go on to most VA Campuses there are more administrative and support facilities and personnel than caregivers. Its a train wreck. Its not sustainable. They military sexual trauma clinic is ridiculous...not in its necessity, but in its scope. The mental health/behavioral health sections are tramau specific, campaign specific, substance use and abuse specific. Its overwhelming. If you spend any time in the ERs at a VA facility you are just as likely to find elderly vets without family or community support that are there because they want to see a friendly face as you are to find people there for a real medical emergency.
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

VanceMack said:
I dont doubt this happens. But you REALLY have to look at this situation with a much broader scope.

The VA healthcare system is NOT designed to, funded to or staffed to provide support of any and every retired military veteran. The absolute reality is that the recipients of VA medical care are SUPPOSED to be limited to people with a service connected disability. If you are a retired servicemember your healthcare is covered under Champus or Tricare. You are supposed to go through your nearest military medical provider or through the system to coordinate a PCM. If you didnt serve your 20 (or were not medically retired) you arent supposed to receive retirement and medical benefits. Thats not right or wrong...its just the way it is.

Unfortunately...thats not what the system has become. They essentially turn no one away. In the name of politics and administration they have created so many new programs that they have as many directors and department heads as they do caregivers. They have a ton of new clients that have been rated disabled due to PTSD, MST, or any number of mental health diagnosis. If you spent even a year in the service and call through the VA system and after 25 years away from the service say "I used to be in the Army...and I think I am going to kill myself" you are going to get seen, get an ID card, and get covered. If you have been out of the service for 40 years and dont have any other coverage than your SSN and medicare benefits you will get in the system, even if what you want to be seen for is not in any way shape or form service connected.

Wonder why they have backlogs getting new clients into the system? They are bombarded with requests. Wonder why they cant see everyone in a timely manner? There simply arent enough facilities, caregivers, and funds. If you go on to most VA Campuses there are more administrative and support facilities and personnel than caregivers. Its a train wreck. Its not sustainable. They military sexual trauma clinic is ridiculous...not in its necessity, but in its scope. The mental health/behavioral health sections are tramau specific, campaign specific, substance use and abuse specific. Its overwhelming. If you spend any time in the ERs at a VA facility you are just as likely to find elderly vets without family or community support that are there because they want to see a friendly face as you are to find people there for a real medical emergency.
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You are exactly right. Anybody who served can be seen by the VA. Anybody. This has gone far from it's original intent to serve only those SC disabled or retired. You keep pouring water into a bucket after the bucket is full, and the water is going to splash out all over the floor.

Also, scores of injured are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. The load is incredibly taxing on an already overly taxed system.

Not justifying what happened - at all - but the VA has been in trouble for a long time and it's not going to get any better until they get more money.
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

I can't. I make too much money and have insurance. I often wonder if that too is not a mistake. Why not take us all and the money and build better facilities with the income.
Superfly said:
You are exactly right. Anybody who served can be seen by the VA. Anybody. This has gone far from it's original intent to serve only those SC disabled or retired. You keep pouring water into a bucket after the bucket is full, and the water is going to splash out all over the floor.

Also, scores of injured are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. The load is incredibly taxing on an already overly taxed system.

Not justifying what happened - at all - but the VA has been in trouble for a long time and it's not going to get any better until they get more money.
Click to expand...
 
donsutherland1 said:
From CNN:



A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.
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I agree this is horrible, but this is just an extention of Walter Reed. This is the type of stuff that people want to turn our healthcare system into.
our vets should get the same high priority treatment as our congressman and president do.

they risk a lot more, but this is where they end up for their service to their country.
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

mak2 said:
I can't. I make too much money and have insurance. I often wonder if that too is not a mistake. Why not take us all and the money and build better facilities with the income.
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That is a big part of the problem - VA care has become yet another welfare (safety net?) program.

The Veterans’ Health Care Eligibility Reform Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-262, 110 Stat. 3177) mandated that VA deliver services to veterans who have service-connected conditions, to veterans unable to pay for necessary medical care, and to specific groups of veterans, such as former prisoners of war. The legislation permitted VA to offer services to all other veterans to the extent that resources and facilities were available; it also required VA to develop and implement an enrollment system to facilitate the management and delivery of health care services.
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http://www.cbo.gov/publication/21773
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

VanceMack said:
I dont doubt this happens. But you REALLY have to look at this situation with a much broader scope.

The VA healthcare system is NOT designed to, funded to or staffed to provide support of any and every retired military veteran. The absolute reality is that the recipients of VA medical care are SUPPOSED to be limited to people with a service connected disability. If you are a retired servicemember your healthcare is covered under Champus or Tricare. You are supposed to go through your nearest military medical provider or through the system to coordinate a PCM. If you didnt serve your 20 (or were not medically retired) you arent supposed to receive retirement and medical benefits. Thats not right or wrong...its just the way it is.

Unfortunately...thats not what the system has become. They essentially turn no one away. In the name of politics and administration they have created so many new programs that they have as many directors and department heads as they do caregivers. They have a ton of new clients that have been rated disabled due to PTSD, MST, or any number of mental health diagnosis. If you spent even a year in the service and call through the VA system and after 25 years away from the service say "I used to be in the Army...and I think I am going to kill myself" you are going to get seen, get an ID card, and get covered. If you have been out of the service for 40 years and dont have any other coverage than your SSN and medicare benefits you will get in the system, even if what you want to be seen for is not in any way shape or form service connected.

Wonder why they have backlogs getting new clients into the system? They are bombarded with requests. Wonder why they cant see everyone in a timely manner? There simply arent enough facilities, caregivers, and funds. If you go on to most VA Campuses there are more administrative and support facilities and personnel than caregivers. Its a train wreck. Its not sustainable. They military sexual trauma clinic is ridiculous...not in its necessity, but in its scope. The mental health/behavioral health sections are tramau specific, campaign specific, substance use and abuse specific. Its overwhelming. If you spend any time in the ERs at a VA facility you are just as likely to find elderly vets without family or community support that are there because they want to see a friendly face as you are to find people there for a real medical emergency.
Click to expand...

It should also be noted that two extended-duration wars involving large numbers of troops greatly increased the number of veterans who would need the VA hospital system's services. Extended deployments, IEDs, EFPs, etc., all dramatically increased the number of veterans in need of such services.
 
j-mac said:
No doubt. But the VA system IS government run health care....Our future looks bright doesn't it?
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This article isn't a commentary on the VA healthcare system in it's entirely.

It deals with the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, and the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system only.

More specifically, since hospital care is at issue, it deals specifically with the Carl T. Hayden Veterans Affairs Medical Center - the only hospital in the Phoenix system.

You (not just you - pretty much every "you" weighing in on this topic) are extrapolating a local issue out to be a national problem - and it isn't.

For the most part, and for the overwhelming majority of veterans, the VA system provides awesome care.

What you're doing is tantamount to reading an article about a single private hospital, that's part of a larger private hospital network, being sued for malpractice and jumping to the conclusion that "this is what you get when you opt for private healthcare".

And make no mistake, private hospitals are sued for malpractice every single day.
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

mak2 said:
I can't. I make too much money and have insurance. I often wonder if that too is not a mistake. Why not take us all and the money and build better facilities with the income.
Click to expand...

Has this changed recently? Because about 10 years ago, maybe longer, the VA opened up to any vet that served. You could go to the VA even if you had a cold. Now they do have a priority list, but the wait is ridiculously long. It takes upwards of 3 months to get an appointment with just a clinic. The clinics are the same as the VA hospitals - anybody can be seen in them.

Hubs used to drive for the DAV, and he knew a retired New York State Police commander that had his own insurance, drove a Benz, and went to the VA, because he served 6 months in the military. THAT is what's wrong with the VA.
 
LowDown said:
There's no money for any of that. It's easy enough to make glib pronouncements about what they should have done without any acknowledgement of what was possible.

Go up the chain all the way to Congress. Congress is immune. Your federal government is sovereign and can't be held accountable except at the ballot box where none of this will matter.

People are suffering on health care waiting lists all over the world. It's a bit silly to get worked up about it at this juncture, after we ourselves have bought into a health care system like that and have subjected veterans to such a health care system for 100 years.

Give it a few years and we'll all be stewing in our own juices. None of this fooforall is going to make any difference.
Click to expand...
So if someone is dying in front of you, and you can save them. Its OK to not save them if they are broke?
 
Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

Had I got in the system pre 1997 I could have stayed. I know druing the time period I was in 80-84 you only had to have served 120 to be eligible.
Superfly said:
Has this changed recently? Because about 10 years ago, maybe longer, the VA opened up to any vet that served. You could go to the VA even if you had a cold. Now they do have a priority list, but the wait is ridiculously long. It takes upwards of 3 months to get an appointment with just a clinic. The clinics are the same as the VA hospitals - anybody can be seen in them.

Hubs used to drive for the DAV, and he knew a retired New York State Police commander that had his own insurance, drove a Benz, and went to the VA, because he served 6 months in the military. THAT is what's wrong with the VA.
Click to expand...
 
donsutherland1 said:
From CNN:



A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.
Click to expand...

Murder charges should be brought, but don't hold your breath. This isn't a problem exclusive to just one VA district. It infects the entire rotten system.
 
CRUE CAB said:
So if someone is dying in front of you, and you can save them. Its OK to not save them if they are broke?
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That is not the case, even in the OP article's limited example. These folks were placed on waiting lists for who knows what - they not sitting in an ER.
 
NIMBY said:
If it were one of my Parents, I would put together his file and visit your Congressman's main field office .
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People have to all the time, I did exactly that. In the military they teach you to 'be your own advocate' - because they know their system sucks.

Veterans shouldn't have to move heaven and earth just to go to a doctor for a heart condition.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is not the case, even in the OP article's limited example. These folks were placed on waiting lists for who knows what - they not sitting in an ER.
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Dying in the ER and dying laying in a bed are not much different.
 
pogomutt said:
Murder charges should be brought, but don't hold your breath. This isn't a problem exclusive to just one VA district. It infects the entire rotten system.
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If a hospital let one of my parents die, oh yea. There would be a murder.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is not the case, even in the OP article's limited example. These folks were placed on waiting lists for who knows what - they not sitting in an ER.
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If you're placed on a waiting list how long do you expect to wait?

For one: you expect to be given a time. Set up an appointment, perhaps. Make it official. If you called a very busy doctor they might say, "The soonest we can get you in is February 15. That's five months away, is that okay?" You could say no or you could say yes. Then you know it's on the calendar - there it is. Your appointment.

Okay - good. It would be nice if it could be earlier, but at least you KNOW. At least they're working with you, treating you with respect. They're being professional.

The veteran's system isn't a schedule based concept like that. It's more akin to a file drawer where there's no organization system and the people are pulled at random and *oops* deleted *oops* stolen files. Just *oops*

Sounds like a joke, the stolen part, but last year (according to military employees running the medical office) my husband's files were 'stolen' and he had to redo those tests and so forth.

You want to know how big my husband's med file is? He has copies of all his reports, now (you know: after the military proved unable to maintain his records with all that theft going on). Over 2,000 pages. It's a massive stack that I've yet to file in a more transportable system so it's just sitting on his dresser. i bet you most of those papers are filled with redundant materials and results to the enth degree.

Anyway - I could rant all day about the failures of military care . . . I really could.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is not the case, even in the OP article's limited example. These folks were placed on waiting lists for who knows what - they not sitting in an ER.
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Time can be a significant factor in medical prognoses. For example, the 71-year-old veteran highlighted in the story died of Stage 4 bladder cancer. The 5-year survival rate for that cancer had it been treated is a dismal 15%. It wasn't treated. Had he been examined in the required 14-30 days, perhaps his cancer would have been detected in stage 2 or stage 3 and then treated. The 5-year survival rates for those stages are 63% and 46% respectively. At earlier stages, the surival rates are much higher.

Survival rates for bladder cancer by stage

Given that the veteran had a history of cancer, seeing him on a timely basis absolutely should have been a priority. Instead, there was little sense of urgency. The deliberate policy of hiding the excessive wait periods almost certainly contributed to that facility's indifference to patients' needs and lack of urgency even where case histories warranted it. That environment had adverse medical consequences and the managers should be held fully responsible for the outcomes that resulted from their deliberate choices.
 
soot said:
This article isn't a commentary on the VA healthcare system in it's entirely.

It deals with the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, and the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system only.

More specifically, since hospital care is at issue, it deals specifically with the Carl T. Hayden Veterans Affairs Medical Center - the only hospital in the Phoenix system.

You (not just you - pretty much every "you" weighing in on this topic) are extrapolating a local issue out to be a national problem - and it isn't.

For the most part, and for the overwhelming majority of veterans, the VA system provides awesome care.

What you're doing is tantamount to reading an article about a single private hospital, that's part of a larger private hospital network, being sued for malpractice and jumping to the conclusion that "this is what you get when you opt for private healthcare".

And make no mistake, private hospitals are sued for malpractice every single day.
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What the hell planet are you from? I was wounded several times in the Vietnam War (Lima Company Rangers, 75th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division) and I've been cursed for decades in having to deal with this monstrous corrupt bureaucracy in at least four different states. Don't tell me, or any other wounded combat veteran, that this is a problem exclusive to Phoenix. It isn't. It cuts a broad swath across the entire network. The VA is the world's largest government bureaucracy. This is your federal government busy at work murdering veterans. They've been doing it for decades. Do you like what you see?
 
CRUE CAB said:
So if someone is dying in front of you, and you can save them. Its OK to not save them if they are broke?
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Again, you fail to acknowledge that some things aren't possible. Some VA administrators have tried to deal with long waiting times by simply mandating that they be shortened without providing any of the resources necessary to do so (because they weren't available). Guess what, the shortening of waiting times didn't happen, but at least the administration got some congressman or another off of their backs.

The Congress pretends to care about veterans and rags on the VA for not giving good, timely care without allocating the resources necessary to provide good, timely care. Guess what, the care doesn't get provided. But at least the Congress gets to say they care about veterans.

See how it works? Don't laugh, your health care plan will be working the same way pretty soon except that Congress will have insurance companies to rag on and your premiums will be hiked to pay for any improvements.
 
LowDown said:
Again, you fail to acknowledge that some things aren't possible. Some VA administrators have tried to deal with long waiting times by simply mandating that they be shortened without providing any of the resources necessary to do so (because they weren't available). Guess what, the shortening of waiting times didn't happen, but at least the administration got some congressman or another off of their backs.

The Congress pretends to care about veterans and rags on the VA for not giving good, timely care without allocating the resources necessary to provide good, timely care. Guess what, the care doesn't get provided. But at least the Congress gets to say they care about veterans.

See how it works? Don't laugh, your health care plan will be working the same way pretty soon except that Congress will have insurance companies to rag on and your premiums will be hiked to pay for any improvements.
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I don't doubt that Obama care will work the same way.
 
pogomutt said:
What the hell planet are you from?
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Planet D 4/12 Inf.

My experience with the VAMC system in the NY/NJ area has been awesome.

The experiences of most of my vet friends in the NY/NJ VA area has been awesome.

Does the VA occasionally drop the ball?

In my experience yes.

But no more so that a number of private hospitals I've patronized.

A couple years ago my mother was in a private hospital being treated for cancer.

They "lost" her.

Literally parked her in a wheelchair in a hallway and forgot her there.

When she tried to get help she was more or less ignored by the staff.

After several hours she borrowed a cell phone from a visitor walking down the hall and called me to come pick her up.

The hospital's response?

Essentially: "Oops. Lulz. Our bad."

I took her home and had the doctor reschedule her procedure out of another hospital he was affiliated with.

And then the first hospital tried to bill her anyway.

It went as far as our retaining a lawyer and threatening to go to the media before they relented.

Again, private hospital.

See - that's what you get when you opt for a free market, capitalist system!!!

Right?

Or does that sound ****ing stupid?

Yeah, I agree that it does.

Go Google "hospital sued" (40,000 results) or "hospital and malpractice" (nearly 4 million results).

Again, something that happen EVERY DAY.

At best/most I'll accept the argument that the VA healthcare system is no better and no worse than private helathcare.
 
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