A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

I was pretty much talking about if a major procedure were necessary, not live there.
I didn't know about the expanded Tri-Care option.
Mom has Dad's since he is gone and it takes care of her in an assisted living.
I know we're fortunate to have it.
I can think of several good Hospitals near her .

Superfly said:

We could go back without hurting his health, but not without hurting his feelings. :lol: I'd go home tomorrow, but we live near the beach now, in south Georgia, and I don't think he wants to move back to all that snow.

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NIMBY said:

I was pretty much talking about if a major procedure were necessary, not live there.
I didn't know about the expanded Tri-Care option.
Mom has Dad's since he is gone and it takes care of her in an assisted living.
I know we're fortunate to have it.
I can think of several good Hospitals near her .

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Oh, no - that'd be like 1,000 miles to get there. Gainesville, Florida has a decent VA hospital, but we haven't spent a lot of time there so we can't say how good it is, or is not. It's the closest one to us. He only went there for a bucketload of testing when we were getting his disability percentage increased. Because he has Tricare Prime, plus Medicare, he sees whoever he wants. If he gets pissed, he dumps them and finds another one. It's liberating, I tell ya'. $38 a month, for all 4 of us.

I would like to add something here, as well, for the veterans who are working, trying to get the VA to help them. My husband, a couple of years ago, was finally, after many years, approved for 100% total service connected disability. It took years of research. I have 7 binders full of his SMRs, as well as binders of documentation proving that the issues he has are a result of the Army. At the beginning of this "quest," I found a website called Home Veterans Disability Claims HadIt.com Veteran To Veteran LLC. It was invaluable. I don't think I could have gotten his increase without these people. The website is called "had it" because it's a bunch of pissed off vets and spouses, who are tired of being screwed by the VA, and they tell you how to beat them.

My first thing I was told, when I went there the first time, looking for help for his increase? I was told, "Do NOT expect the VA to do the right thing, because they will not. Do NOT expect them to help you find documentation to verify your claims, because they will not. They will send you the SMRs, but it's your job to go through each SMR, line by line, and find the problem. Then once you find it, you have to find documentation that backs up where the military caused this. Then you turn it in and hope for the best." So that's what I had to do. Took a few years, of going line by line through each individual SMR (out of thousands upon thousands). Either way, it was worth it because he got his increase, but it wasn't easy. I learned a lot doing it, and now am happy to help any Vets that are in the position he was in, for so long.

Superfly said:

Oh, no - that'd be like 1,000 miles to get there. Gainesville, Florida has a decent VA hospital, but we haven't spent a lot of time there so we can't say how good it is, or is not. It's the closest one to us. He only went there for a bucketload of testing when we were getting his disability percentage increased.

Because he has Tricare Prime, plus Medicare, he sees whoever he wants.
If he gets pissed, he dumps them and finds another one.
It's liberating, I tell ya'. $38 a month, for all 4 of us.

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I saw a lot of Air Force Bases before my 13th birthday.
We came back from Morrocco in 1961 and went to Travis, the gateway to Vietnam.
Sargeants like Dad didn't make a lot, but like Ron Paul once said, we didn't know we were poor until we were told we were, especially off base.

We never wanted for anything, especially health care.
Though Dad would get racial when drunk, he always reminded me it was a Black Doctor who saved my life when I was a baby .

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

(CNN) -- At least 40 U.S. veterans died waiting for appointments at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, many of whom were placed on a secret waiting list.

The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources.

For six months, CNN has been reporting on extended delays in health care appointments suffered by veterans across the country and who died while waiting for appointments and care. But the new revelations about the Phoenix VA are perhaps the most disturbing and striking to come to light thus far.

Internal e-mails obtained by CNN show that top management at the VA hospital in Arizona knew about the practice and even defended it.

Dr. Sam Foote just retired after spending 24 years with the VA system in Phoenix. The veteran doctor told CNN in an exclusive interview that the Phoenix VA works off two lists for patient appointments:

There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

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The administrators of this VA hospital should be frog-marched out in front of the hospital and shot.

American said:

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com



The administrators of this VA hospital should be frog-marched out in front of the hospital and shot.

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OMG, that is unforgivable. I've railed for years about how poorly the VA treats our veterans, the heroes who have given everything to serve their country. This literally makes me cry. Heads should roll. This is the result of two administrations that have ignored the men and women who have served with pride, and have believed that the country they loved would step up to the plate and care for them when they needed it.

This isn't a partisan issue; this is an issue of an official abuse of our wounded warriors by politicians that care nothing for those who have trusted their country to keep its word and care for them in their time of need. It's political lip-service only, and these despicable politicians and VA officials should all spend the rest of their miserable lives in a 6x6 cell, hopefully suffering at least a fraction of the agony they have caused to those who have so honorably served us, and who have been so dishonorably abused.

It breaks my heart.

DiAnna said:

OMG, that is unforgivable. I've railed for years about how poorly the VA treats our veterans, the heroes who have given everything to serve their country. This literally makes me cry. Heads should roll. This is the result of two administrations that have ignored the men and women who have served with pride, and have believed that the country they loved would step up to the plate and care for them when they needed it.

This isn't a partisan issue; this is an issue of an official abuse of our wounded warriors by politicians that care nothing for those who have trusted their country to keep its word and care for them in their time of need. It's political lip-service only, and these despicable politicians and VA officials should all spend the rest of their miserable lives in a 6x6 cell, hopefully suffering at least a fraction of the agony they have caused to those who have so honorably served us, and who have been so dishonorably abused.

It breaks my heart.

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Did you watch the video, it's eye opening?

American said:

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com



The administrators of this VA hospital should be frog-marched out in front of the hospital and shot.

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As should all the politicians.

And especially those that always howl about how much they love veterans, when it was politically expedient you had idiots like Cruz, standing with vets at the memorials, raging against the shutdown that he was partially responsible for, where is he now, why is he not standing with vets on the steps of the VA offices demanding a change to this situation?

Don't mean to pick on him, but his hypocritical actions during the shutdown really stand out to me, but both parties share responsibility for this state of affairs, they refuse to give the VA the resources it needs to

A: take care of veterans As well as they could

B: modernise the filing system so that claims can be processed more effectively.

On top of that this is indicative of almost every government and country that has ever waged war ever, they always promise the young that they'll be taken care of if anything happens to them, but they never really have the resources to back that up.

That isn't the VA system as a whole. Each state runs their own VA system. Some stronger than others. What happened in Arizona is horrific.

American said:

Did you watch the video, it's eye opening?

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I did. It made me cry. Literally.

Godalmighty, that was painful to read. WTH are they thinking? That guy who was 71 and wanted to be treated at the VA because he loved the Navy...

I can't watch the video.

After reading it all, I'm not sure I understand what specifically is being done to prevent this from happening again (in Phoenox or elsewhere)?

donsutherland1 said:

From CNN:



A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.

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This is merely a foreshadowing of what the ACA is bringing to the rest of the country.

Blue_State said:

That isn't the VA system as a whole. Each state runs their own VA system. Some stronger than others. What happened in Arizona is horrific.

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What happened wasn't by accident or incompentence, it was done on purpose. Unbelieveable!

American said:

What happened wasn't by accident or incompentence, it was done on purpose. Unbelieveable!

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It's the kind of system that we have committed to for everyone in the country. You won't be able to avoid it. Congratulations, fools!

You think you have any control or say over any of this any more? Morons! You gave all that up, and for what? You thought you'd be getting something for nothing.

donsutherland1 said:

For starters:

First, don't hide the realities. From the CNN article:

There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

That's fraud. The deception was deliberate and a matter of choice. The managers should be held fully accountable for the consequences of their actions, including but not limited to the deaths of the 40 persons that resulted from their practices.

Second, have the courage to raise resource-related issues to the Secretary of Defense, if necessary. The Secretary is not omniscient. If problems are not brought to his attention, there's no assurance he will learn about them. Former Secretary of Defense Gates responded decisively when he learned of outpatient problems at Walter Reed. These problems are even worse, as they resulted in deaths, deaths that should not have happened.

Third, if they believed they were in a position that was untenable and irrevocably beyond their control, have the ethics to resign.

Those managers did not resign. There is no evidence to date that they tried to reach the Defense Secretary. They made deliberate and knowing choices. They should be held wholly accountable for the consequences of their purposeful decisions.

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What a bunch of sanctimonious twattle. Resign yourself. You and everyone else have helped establish this system. You didn't want to hear about the problems, you didn't want to have to pay for better care for veterans, you are as much responsible for this as anyone else.

And now we have voted the same kind of system in to be the health care administrator for the rest of us. There will be no way to avoid it. Enjoy!

LowDown said:

What a bunch of sanctimonious twattle. Resign yourself. You and everyone else have helped establish this system. You didn't want to hear about the problems, you didn't want to have to pay for better care for veterans, you are as much responsible for this as anyone else.

And now we have voted the same kind of system in to be the health care administrator for the rest of us. There will be no way to avoid it. Enjoy!

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It's "sanctimonious twattle" only if one sees the vets as mere statistics on a piece of paper or a computer screen and nothing more. If one sees the vets as the individual persons they are (or were in the cases of those who died on account of the particular system's deliberate policy), the connections they have to their families and communities, and appreciates the risks and sacrifices they made on behalf of this nation, one cannot but feel outraged over the managers' needless, purposeful, and knowing choices.

Finally,the U.S. justice system is premised on the notion of individual responsibility, not collective guilt. Appealing to collective guilt or collective responsibility does not exonerate the managers from responsibility for their deliberate choices and the consequences of those choices. I realize that the idea of collective guilt might have appeal to some as it dilutes or undermines the sense of individual responsibility freeing one from notions of accountability for one's actions, but such a concept is alien both to the the principles of the U.S. founding and the judicial framework that was created during that time and evolved afterward.

LowDown said:

It's the kind of system that we have committed to for everyone in the country. You won't be able to avoid it. Congratulations, fools!

You think you have any control or say over any of this any more? Morons! You gave all that up, and for what? You thought you'd be getting something for nothing.

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We have to pass it to see what's in it. They don't know this is coming, and Obama and the people who put this in place will be long gone when it happens.

Deuce said:

No, it is not.

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Ok, I am willing to try and understand Deuce....Tell me how it's different...

For some historical context on how the Walter Reed scandal was addressed, here are excerpts from The Washington Post:

The commander of Walter Reed Army Medical Center was fired yesterday after the Army said it had lost trust and confidence in his leadership in the wake of a scandal over outpatient treatment of wounded troops at the Northwest Washington hospital complex...

"The care and welfare of our wounded men and women in uniform demand the highest standard of excellence and commitment that we can muster as a government," Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said in a statement. "When this standard is not met, I will insist on swift and direct corrective action and, where appropriate, accountability up the chain of command."

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Army Fires Commander of Walter Reed

The initial story that revealed the scandal: Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

Key points:

1. The action was decisive and swift (just 10 days after The Washington Post broke the story.
2. This scandal did not involve the deaths of veterans.
3. Secretary Gates and other senior policy makers did not embrace notions of collective guilt nor try to blame the American people for the deplorable situation.

LowDown said:

It's the kind of system that we have committed to for everyone in the country. You won't be able to avoid it. Congratulations, fools! You think you have any control or say over any of this any more? Morons! You gave all that up, and for what? You thought you'd be getting something for nothing.

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No, it's not.

The VA was never a serious attempt to replace for profit healthcare for service members. Ever... ever...

It is now a salve the 'never served' chest thumpers try and smear on vets to feel like 'they support the troops'. Thanks but I sure don't need your 'support'... :roll:

Since the 70's the VA has always been the last resort. In the 80's President Reagan elevating the VA to cabinet level did little more than create more overhead and make the top tier administrators political appointees.

Most vets risked little more than a paper cut while serving, most go on to spend 30+ years in the civilian sector and most retirees have been drawing 1/2 pay the entire time they worked another job. Depending on the VA only for healthcare is ignorant for the vast majority of vets.

The VA hospital system should be for disabled vets only.

What the rest of us could use is a voucher or discount system to use in the civilian world. A supplement to our civilian health care insurance. Disabled or critical health care vets get a bigger discount but the idea of a stand alone healthcare system- that's called reinventing the wheel around here- is flawed. back in the 1920-30's the idea of healthcare, insurance and benefits was revolutionary and cutting edge... now the VA has been overtaken by civilian healthcare.

Most in the National Guard can't use the VA system as they live in small towns far away from 'Capital City'. It is of little use to many who served in the recent wars unless they uproot their families to move to a city with a VA care center.

I hope and pray I NEVER need the VA when it comes to healthcare or a nursing home. For a lot of vets the VA healthcare system is a 'benefit' we damn sure don't want.

Use the VA system for critical care vets, voucher the rest of us and the never served ranters can at ease with the comparisons of VA with ACA. :doh

I see a bunch of folks getting bent out of shape when not all information is present.
And the information provided is severally lacking, especially in regards to his actions or lack thereof.
Like why didn't he do his own follow up by conducting a walk-in at his primary care clinic?
Yeah, there is a lot of information missing.

Excon said:

I see a bunch of folks getting bent out of shape when not all information is present.
And the information provided is severally lacking, especially in regards to his actions or lack thereof.
Like why didn't he do his own follow up by conducting a walk-in at his primary care clinic?
Yeah, there is a lot of information missing.

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It is likely that at least some veterans might have been able to take measures to mitigate matters related to their own personal situations, but many likely had expectations that the system in question would deliver. The expectation that a health facility would deliver reasonable service is not an unrealistic one. However, that's an entirely separate matter.

What is clear from the news account is that the system in question was deliberately providing Washington with false data. Had Washington had access to the correct data, Washington would have been in a position to take corrective measures ranging from addressing possible resource-related matters to replacing ineffective managers, among others. At least some, if not many steps might have already been undertaken.

Instead, the managers of the system willfully provided false data. As the deception was deliberate, their actions amounted to fraud. In the meantime, 40 veterans died due to excessive waits, a situation the managers chose to hide. Had Washington had correct information, the problems might well have been fixed and many of those veterans might well have received treatment on a more timely basis. In turn, deaths that took place could have been avoided. It's that aspect of fraud and the consequences of that fraud that are not in doubt.

donsutherland1 said:

It is likely that at least some veterans might have been able to take measures to mitigate matters related to their own personal situations, but many likely had expectations that the system in question would deliver. The expectation that a health facility would deliver reasonable service is not an unrealistic one. However, that's an entirely separate matter.

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Most veterans, and those who take care of them, know how to utilize the system. So something isn't being said here.

If I could base it on visual appearance alone. I would say it is the fault of his family member's for not doing what they should have to get him in.

donsutherland1 said:

In the meantime, 40 veterans died due to excessive waits, a situation the managers chose to hide.

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You do not know that. That is apparently what they want you to believe but they didn't back it up, or even say those 40 died because of the wait.
For all we know those forty died of car accidents while on the waiting list.
So like I said, there is a lot of information missing.

LowDown said:

This is the inevitable result of having high demand for services and low supply. What are the local managers supposed to do?

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If needed call in private practice doctors. Call in private nurses, call in who ever you have to. But to let people suffer and die? No excuse for that.
Go far enough up the chain of command and you will find who to blame.