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A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

donsutherland1

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From CNN:

At least 40 U.S. veterans died waiting for appointments at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, many of whom were placed on a secret waiting list.

The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources.

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.
 
From CNN:

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.

People used to tell me that I didn't know how awesome I had it, being in the military, since I had government care. I am almost completely unsurprised by this.
 
This is why I have a separate insurance policy and have civilian doctors. I would be one of those dead veterans if I waited for the VA and didn't have my private health care sources.

Government run anything, especially health care, is doomed to fail at some point, or at the very least, cause as much or more harm than any good hoped for at its inception.
 
From CNN:



A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.

Horrible....Isn't this sort of what single payer is?
 
No doubt. But the VA system IS government run health care....Our future looks bright doesn't it?

Absolutely - what could be better managed than a federal gov't program? ;)
 
Disgusting. Even before I read this, I thought poorly of how military personnel are treated. I can't imagine having such disregard for veterans.

The Phoenix VA Health Care System is committed to delivering the highest quality care to Veterans. We have conducted robust internal reviews since these allegations surfaced and welcome the results from the Office of Inspector General's review. We take these allegations seriously.

We acknowledge Phoenix VA Health Care System has had longstanding issues with Veterans accessing care and have taken numerous actions to meet demand, while we continue to serve more Veterans and enhance our services . To ensure new Veterans waiting for appointments are managed appropriately, we maintain an Electronic Wait List (EWL) in accordance with the national VHA Scheduling Directive.

The ability of new and established patients to get more timely care has showed significant improvement in the last two years which is attributable to increased budget, staffing, efficiency and infrastructure. We continue to make improvements to further reduce wait times for Veterans. Veterans who have concerns about their care, should call the Patient Advocate at 602-277-5551, ext. 6171 or 6172.

Phoenix VA Health Care System cares deeply for every Veteran we are privileged to serve. As we continue to improve, we focus our work on Veterans to keep true to VA's mission.
VA spokesman responds to CNN Investigations report - CNN.com

This anemic response demonstrates a distinct lack of regard. It's subtle. They go into almost no detail of the so called investigation. I doubt anything will come of it.
 
I find it dishonest how some view certain groups trying to coverup things up and claim that this is how exactly the entire program works. Guess what? People in the civilian world can't even get on some lists at all because they can't afford it. They don't have the money to pay for it and they still don't have insurance for any number of reasons. This is an issue but certainly not the norm. I've been under military medicine for a large portion of my life and was able to get many appointments pretty quickly. They even pointed out a problem with my knee when they were checking my leg for why I had pain lower down. And no, this isn't right, but it also isn't something that can be blamed on the system really, but rather on the nature of people and the pressure put on these hospitals to operate seeing more people with less resources and higher expectations that are simply not completely reasonable under the circumstances. It isn't an excuse for this horrible list (those responsible should be fired), but it is a reason why we would see such a thing.

And this would be different if we had an NHC system because vets could easily choose to go to either a VA hospital or a hospital closer because they wouldn't have to worry about not being able to pay for it. And civilian hospitals/doctors face some of these same exact problems, including long wait times and even turning people away.

In cities, the average doctor wait-time is 18.5 days

But also there are many things that occur in the civilian medical system as well that would be similar to this and yet never brought to light like this is here because they are under less scrutiny (far less) than military systems.

How would any of you suggest this change and would that change realistically "save" people? Because if you know of a way to fix it so this doesn't happen but where veterans are still able to receive quality healthcare without completely breaking the federal or state coffers, please tell us all that plan. Perhaps we can push to get that put into place.

No system is immune from human failings and errors, greed or incompetence. Whether it is publicly run or privately.
 
From CNN:



A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.

This is the inevitable result of having high demand for services and low supply. What are the local managers supposed to do? They have a budget that they don't set themselves, they have demand for services that they have no control over. Long waiting times are inevitable. They can't ration care so they do the only thing they can do -- extend waiting times. That people die waiting for care is a predictable result.

Patients are flooding into VA centers all over the country as they lose private insurance or find it too expensive. The demand for services has skyrocketed, but adjustments in care supply move at a glacial pace, as is the case in any government operation.

If you like this you're gonna love Obamacare when it's fully implemented. Small numbers of health care providers in networks will mean long waiting times and the same results. Single payer is the same way wherever it has been tried: Canada - long waiting times; Great Britain - long waiting times. And OF COURSE people die waiting.

This is what we have gotten ourselves into.
 
What are the local managers supposed to do?

For starters:

First, don't hide the realities. From the CNN article:

There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

That's fraud. The deception was deliberate and a matter of choice. The managers should be held fully accountable for the consequences of their actions, including but not limited to the deaths of the 40 persons that resulted from their practices.

Second, have the courage to raise resource-related issues to the Secretary of Defense, if necessary. The Secretary is not omniscient. If problems are not brought to his attention, there's no assurance he will learn about them. Former Secretary of Defense Gates responded decisively when he learned of outpatient problems at Walter Reed. These problems are even worse, as they resulted in deaths, deaths that should not have happened.

Third, if they believed they were in a position that was untenable and irrevocably beyond their control, have the ethics to resign.

Those managers did not resign. There is no evidence to date that they tried to reach the Defense Secretary. They made deliberate and knowing choices. They should be held wholly accountable for the consequences of their purposeful decisions.
 
First off, this is disgusting and no way to treat veterans.

Second, blaming government is lazy and as easy scapegoat.

World Health Organization ranking of health systems in 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 36 Best Healthcare Systems In The World - Business Insider

I didn't carefully check every single country but most or all of them are strongly run by the government and they are all better than the U.S.

Our healthcare is a disgrace and it needs overhauled badly. I think its quite likely we need to be more like these other countries, because what we've been doing obviously isn't working.
 
Perhaps some right wing military supporters, and lefties as well though I think most of us already do, should contact their Congresscritters and demand less money go to mercs and contractors like Xe and Halliburton and more on our troops and their long lasting medical and financial support both during and after their service.
 
People used to tell me that I didn't know how awesome I had it, being in the military, since I had government care. I am almost completely unsurprised by this.

Seriously - this a million times over.

My husband is avoiding the VA at all costs because their healthcare is total, utter crap.
 
according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources.

And with that we accept a conspiracy theory?
 
Have you looked into Scott AFB in IL outside of Belleville--it is a medical field.
There is a great VA hospital in Iowa City, IA--related to the Univ. of Iowa.
As well, the Vet's Home in Quincy, IL is associated with Blessing Hospital, an outstanding facility.
Quincy is the 4th oldest VH in the Nation, 205 acres.
There is a wide range of Veterans living there, physically and mentally, including their spouses, and several dozen female Vets .
Quincy is across from Hannibal and not that far from Arkansas .
Seriously - this a million times over.

My husband is avoiding the VA at all costs because their healthcare is total, utter crap.
 
Have you looked into Scott AFB in IL outside of Belleville--it is a medical field.
There is a great VA hospital in Iowa City, IA--related to the Univ. of Iowa.
As well, the Vet's Home in Quincy, IL is associated with Blessing Hospital, an outstanding facility.
Quincy is the 4th oldest VH in the Nation, 205 acres.
There is a wide range of Veterans living there, physically and mentally, including their spouses, and several dozen female Vets .
Quincy is across from Hannibal and not that far from Arkansas .

Yes, SOME places are stellar. The new NICOE (National Intrepid Center of Excellence) unit that they built to replace part of the horrid, old Walter Reed just outside of DC is state of the art - each service member can easily run a ticket of over a million dollars for one month of treatment, as my husband did.

Oddly - after a million dollar work-over month, when he was relocated to Texas and then Oklahoma (note: he was not permitted to come home for over a year of 'treatment'), each new location redid as many of those same high-tech tests as they could because a month in a high tech facility with a team of 8 doctors tending to him wasn't 'good enough' and they 'had to be sure' (and they were sure - after over a year of re-examining everything that was already examined, they determined the tertiary tests all produced the same results).

Due to the horrendous state of the military health-care system of inabilities in the last seven years I'm certain my husband's health-care costs have shot to well over 3 million.

The military itself doesn't see these qualified facilities as being worth a crap once you leave the area and travel elsewhere.

Further, the average soldier is not stationed in these FEW places that are worth a crap. You are permitted to go where you are permitted to go. You must receive permission to receive care at some of these high quality facilities. It took over a year of permissions and grants to get my husband into NICOE - it was supposed to answer all our issues, but it did relatively little due to how few doctors after that gave any weight to the results. The effort to get him into the NICOE unit was monumental and only made possible by the personal sacrifices of over 15 people who were on active duty and worked along side my husband - he was active duty at that time and over the following two years he was able to eventually retire out per medical (thus: being a veteran happened after NICOE, just to clarify)

In order for my husband to receive various forms of care he was shipped around to everywhere but home. Yet, the average VA soldier lives at home - and their VA is far away, they don't have an army of people to fight for them as my husband did. Their VA's are often in old, run down buildings like the one in Arkansas which is at Ft Roots. Fort Roots was established in the early 1800's and was transferred to a medical care facility in limited nature in the 1920's.

It hasn't seen renovation or improvement in decades.

So - until the military health-care system gets it's multi-billion dollar ass together, it's worthless to the average veteran.

I cannot imagine an elderly veteran being able to hack what my husband and I had to deal with in order to make his health-care possible. No way - anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke.
 
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Hines VA in Maywood, IL and its associated Loyola Hospital were at standing room only
in early 2009 when my Dad sat in a wheelchair for 3 weeks in a hallway.

He only had Alzheimer's and was pocketing food,
nothing compared to the very grave cases coming back from the Middle East.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the VA has kept their heads.

I pretty much took Dad and Mom to sickcall for 40 years after he retired at JAAP/APSA after Scott field.
I'm very grateful for everything Dad received from the VA/military in all wayssince he retired .
 
When we lived in Syracuse, the VA hospital was top notch. The best we've seen.

When we moved to Alabama, it went in the opposite direction. My husband is a heart patient, and it took 5 months to get a cardiologist appointment. The Syracuse VA sent word with my husband, and also put on his chart, that he was to be seen immediately, because of his heart. They still waited 5 months.

We got tired of the BS and went with Tricare Prime. It's not free - we have to pay for it every month. But the premiums are a pittance and we get to choose our doctor, and yes they can be civilian. So worth it.
 
Horrible....Isn't this sort of what single payer is?

Great idea j-mac. Let's privatize our vet services. The freemarket will do a better job at taking care of our vets. Even better idea, let's privatize our military. Private contractors will do a better job than our volunteer boys and girls. As well, let's make them pay for their own housing and no more of those benefits we give the military. Let it fend for itself in the free market.
 
Was there ever a chance you could have gone back to Syracuse without hurting your husband' health?
When we lived in Syracuse, the VA hospital was top notch. The best we've seen.

When we moved to Alabama, it went in the opposite direction. My husband is a heart patient, and it took 5 months to get a cardiologist appointment. The Syracuse VA sent word with my husband, and also put on his chart, that he was to be seen immediately, because of his heart. They still waited 5 months.

We got tired of the BS and went with Tricare Prime. It's not free - we have to pay for it every month. But the premiums are a pittance and we get to choose our doctor, and yes they can be civilian. So worth it.
 
Was there ever a chance you could have gone back to Syracuse without hurting your husband' health?

We could go back without hurting his health, but not without hurting his feelings. :lol: I'd go home tomorrow, but we live near the beach now, in south Georgia, and I don't think he wants to move back to all that snow. :)
 
So - until the military health-care system gets it's multi-billion dollar ass together, it's worthless to the average veteran.

I cannot imagine an elderly veteran being able to hack what my husband and I had to deal with in order to make his health-care possible. No way - anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke.

As you say, it depends on your location.
At Dad's last stop at Manteno, IL VA--a former Mental Sanitarium but expanded and upgraded--
there were two Hospitals in nearby Kankakee where Vets were transferred mwhen they got "sick".

Due to politics, every other ambulance call would go to the Public or Catholic hospital.
Though Alzheimer's is insidious, both Hospitals sucked Tri-Care dry with expensive tests.

At the end, we were fought by the Catholic Hospital on Palliative Care and pulling the plug and still had to wait
for three days of huge expense to Uncle Sugar before we could pull the plug according to Dad's wishes after signing papers .
 
So - until the military health-care system gets it's multi-billion dollar ass together, it's worthless to the average veteran.

If it were one of my Parents, I would put together his file and visit your Congressman's main field office .
 
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