Page 9 of 20 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 194

Thread: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

  1. #81
    Ho, ho, ho.
    Superfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    East Coast
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    21,721

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    I did exactly that when I waited 7 months for Dad's pension to Mom to pay her bills when he died.
    The field officer knew the right phone number and we received our booklet in a few weeks.
    I didn't mind picking up the tab since the Military had given them a life.

    There seems to be quite a discussion going on lately about the "entitlement" some Veteran's families feel they should have.
    We were always grateful for what Uncle Sugar gave us.

    If 50% of Defense is going to Pensions and the VA, something has to give as Rep. Paul Ryan tried to accomplish last December.
    Asking my Mother to take 2% COLA versus 3% is not too much for me too handle.
    How much COLA is enough for the fat-cat Officer Millionaires ?
    most of the time it's not even 2%. It usually is 1.6%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky
    It's easy to be a Conservative, until you need help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal
    After years of condemning Bill Clinton for being a rapist, Republicans apparently changed their minds about the whole thing and elected one of their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen
    Fox News knows their audience. Nuance and facts aren't why they tune in.

  2. #82
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,445

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    While debate and discussion regarding the short comings of VA hospitals is entirely reasonable, I find it odd that the discussion was prompted by a conspiracy theory put forth by one doctor and a handful of "high level sources" (none of which are identified).

  3. #83
    Sage


    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    IL
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    36,837

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    This is the same thing happening across the Nation in ALL pensions facing disaster.
    Here in Illinois, the Teacher's Union and Pension fund which I am in is foolishly fighting in Cout a recent agreement to deal with the Pension,
    similar to what other states have done and what Ryan tried to do.
    When public pension payments are blowing a hole in the budget for education and other needed items, something has to give.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    most of the time it's not even 2%. It usually is 1.6%.
    On the other side, the GOP in IL opposed the pension agreement because it didn't go far enough, meaning they support nothing, just as in DC.
    When Ryan came up with his plan last December, selfish Neo-Cons in his own party deep-sixed the plan.
    Ryan and Cantor are coming after ALL Federal Pensions/Bennies.
    The sooner they restructure the whole system, the better for today's current soldiers and public pensioneers .
    Physics is Phun

  4. #84
    Guru
    soot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Seen
    04-25-17 @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    4,308

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    What has been happening in Phoenix is inexcusable. Guilty VA administrators should go to jail.
    I totally agree with that.

    I don't mean to give the impression that I think the VA (or by extension the .gov) is infallible in any respect.

    I've had my issues with the VA, just not in relation to healthcare.

    I can easily accept that others have.

    If some part of the VA system is broken then I support fixing it 110%.

    If VA officials, managers, or rank-and-file employees are failing our brothers then they need to be held accountable.

    If that means firing, so be it.

    If that means federal prison, so be it.

    All I'm opposed to is this outrageous idea that, because the federal government is involved in something, it is of logical necessity bound to fail; or the obverse of that, which is that because the private sector is involved in something it is of logical necessity somehow more likely to succeed.

    CLEARLY neither of those assertions is accurate.

    Many of us have known about the Phoenix VA and have been complaining to Congressional representatives for years.
    This is the first I'm hearing about it but I'll take your word for it that this is an ongoing problem.

    But it isn't, at its core, all that different a problem than what is experienced as a result of ineffective/inefficient/negligent leadership of civilian institutions.

    Executives and managers everywhere are interested in saving $2 (by cutting whatever corners are necessary) in order that they'll see and additional $1 in their bonus.

    Sometimes those corners are cut ethically, sometimes they're cut unethically.

    These are HUMAN problems - not government vs. civilian problems.

    Here's a quite from an article discussing this issue (I don't know if it's the article posted in the OP):

    Dr. Sam Foote just retired after spending 24 years with the VA system in Phoenix. The veteran doctor told CNN in an exclusive interview that the Phoenix VA works off two lists for patient appointments:

    There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

    "The scheme was deliberately put in place to avoid the VA's own internal rules," said Foote in Phoenix.
    So in this case the government, Big Daddy VA, actually has policies in place to prevent just this sort of thing from happening.

    The problem was/is that unethical managers way down the the VA pecking order deliberately circumvented the rules that the government has put in place in order to appear more effective and efficient than they actually are.

    How often do we hear of such things happening in private industry?

    General Motors is being sued, as we speak, for failing to recall 2.5 million vehicles despite the company's and executives' knowledge that the vehicles were built using defective ignitions switches (ie. ignition switches that did not meet government standards).

    13 people are dead as a result of those switches and millions more have lost millions of dollars in aggregate resale value as a result.

    But we don't hear our friends on the far right screeching that capitalism and private business ownership are to blame.

    No.

    When it's a private business they'll place blame where it belongs: with the company or individual responsible for the problem.

    But when it's the VA system that experiences a VERY similar type of problem the absolute VERY first thing they do is engage their mouths before their brains.

    I'm sorry to hear that the VA system in your neck of the woods is sucking.

    I hope you'll see whatever problems you're experiencing corrected very soon.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

  5. #85
    Student pogomutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    colorado remote
    Last Seen
    05-04-14 @ 02:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    182

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    The OP is about the Carl Hayden VA Hospital in Phoenix. The VA system is like swiss cheese, it has huge holes in it. There are some good hospitals. Many of us have known about the Phoenix VA and have been complaining to Congressional representatives for years. In fact, I moved my VA primary from Phoenix to Tucson. I also have private insurance and use that for almost everything. I cannot say enough good things about the Tucson VA.

    When I was living in Florida I discovered that Atlanta was excellent in handling VA records so I left it that way and it remains that way today.

    What has been happening in Phoenix is inexcusable. Guilty VA administrators should go to jail. Sadly the people who were so supportive of American military going off to war all over the planet are not holding rallies and putting ribbons on their cars to support veterans when vets are treated like crap in places like Phoenix VA. Where are all those "true patriots" back home when you need them?
    [/B]
    It's a simple equation. If you live in a district that is perceived by either party as possessing significant political influence (money & votes), then you get the best VA facilities.

  6. #86
    Ho, ho, ho.
    Superfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    East Coast
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    21,721

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    It's a simple equation. If you live in a district that is perceived by either party as possessing significant political influence (money & votes), then you get the best VA facilities.
    That's nothing new. Same thing happens with BRAC. The most powerful political figures get to keep their bases. The rest? Their bases are closed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky
    It's easy to be a Conservative, until you need help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal
    After years of condemning Bill Clinton for being a rapist, Republicans apparently changed their minds about the whole thing and elected one of their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen
    Fox News knows their audience. Nuance and facts aren't why they tune in.

  7. #87
    Sewer Rat
    Risky Thicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    23,820

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    It's a simple equation. If you live in a district that is perceived by either party as possessing significant political influence (money & votes), then you get the best VA facilities.
    I have heard - don't know - that San Diego, Jackson, MS and Minneapolis VAs are very good. As I mentioned earlier Tucson has been outstanding in my experience.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  8. #88
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Last Seen
    10-02-17 @ 04:49 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    521

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Absolutely - what could be better managed than a federal gov't program?
    Where no one in power is held accountable because they claim ignorance! This country's "leadership" is hilarious at this point. Time to go back to homesteading. Darwinism at its finest.

  9. #89
    Curmudgeon


    LowDown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Houston
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:32 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,574
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The issue is not what is or is not possible. The issue is a facility's deliberately providing false information to Washington. That practice would be no different from, let's say a company's filing false financial statements either to attract investment or to avoid paying taxes. The facility's fraud denied policy makers the dependable and timely information that might have led to corrective measures that could have reduced the wait periods. The extended waits that were hidden by the fraud had adverse medical consequences.
    It doesn't matter what figures Washington got. It would not have made any difference.

    This is the inevitable result of Washington demanding that wait times be shortened without providing the resources needed to do it.

    Having to wait months for an appointment is SOP.
    Last edited by LowDown; 04-24-14 at 03:44 PM.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  10. #90
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 12:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    11,691

    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    And again, once the administrators have told the central office that their funding isn't adequate and after central office has told them that there isn't any more money then what are the administrators supposed to do?

    ...There is no virtue in looking for scapegoats. It might make you feel good to punish officials who couldn't help it, but it is by no means just.
    From the CNN story:

    The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources...

    Internal e-mails obtained by CNN show that top management at the VA hospital in Arizona knew about the practice and even defended it.


    In other words, this is not an unavoidable situation that confronted hapless managers.

    1. Designing a system to mislead the federal government isn't a necessity. It's a matter of choice. Nothing compelled the managers at the Phoenix facility to provide misleading information to the federal government.

    2. All managers have a fiduciary responsibility to make a good faith effort to provide accurate information. Unintentional errors are one thing. Deliberate deception is another. The Phoenix management, specifically those who were engaged in the fraudulent reporting, could have provided the actual data and such explanation as they felt were necessary. They chose to mislead their superiors in Washington. In turn, opportunities to identify a problem and provide a response to it were missed. Patients suffered the consequences. Those consequences included fatalities.

    3. Holding the individuals who designed the fraudulent reporting system, provided the fraudulent data to the federal government, and otherwise had knowledge of the fraud but tolerated it, accountable for their actions and the consequences of the fraud is just. Justice connects actions with accountability.

    I fully realize that from a perspective in which responsibility is viewed as collective in nature, not individual, the principle of holding individuals legally accountable for their actions could be problematic. From that perspective, such legal accountability could well seem unfair or heavy-handed, as collective responsibility seeks to spread the blame and thereby dilute personal responsibility. However, that philosophical debate is beyond the scope of this thread. Far more importantly, notions of collective responsibility are not relevant to the principles at the heart of the U.S. legal system and it's those principles that will guide the investigations that will be launched in coming days and any criminal proceedings that could follow.

Page 9 of 20 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •