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Thread: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

  1. #71
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is not the case, even in the OP article's limited example. These folks were placed on waiting lists for who knows what - they not sitting in an ER.
    Time can be a significant factor in medical prognoses. For example, the 71-year-old veteran highlighted in the story died of Stage 4 bladder cancer. The 5-year survival rate for that cancer had it been treated is a dismal 15%. It wasn't treated. Had he been examined in the required 14-30 days, perhaps his cancer would have been detected in stage 2 or stage 3 and then treated. The 5-year survival rates for those stages are 63% and 46% respectively. At earlier stages, the surival rates are much higher.

    Survival rates for bladder cancer by stage

    Given that the veteran had a history of cancer, seeing him on a timely basis absolutely should have been a priority. Instead, there was little sense of urgency. The deliberate policy of hiding the excessive wait periods almost certainly contributed to that facility's indifference to patients' needs and lack of urgency even where case histories warranted it. That environment had adverse medical consequences and the managers should be held fully responsible for the outcomes that resulted from their deliberate choices.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    This article isn't a commentary on the VA healthcare system in it's entirely.

    It deals with the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, and the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system only.

    More specifically, since hospital care is at issue, it deals specifically with the Carl T. Hayden Veterans Affairs Medical Center - the only hospital in the Phoenix system.

    You (not just you - pretty much every "you" weighing in on this topic) are extrapolating a local issue out to be a national problem - and it isn't.

    For the most part, and for the overwhelming majority of veterans, the VA system provides awesome care.

    What you're doing is tantamount to reading an article about a single private hospital, that's part of a larger private hospital network, being sued for malpractice and jumping to the conclusion that "this is what you get when you opt for private healthcare".

    And make no mistake, private hospitals are sued for malpractice every single day.
    What the hell planet are you from? I was wounded several times in the Vietnam War (Lima Company Rangers, 75th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division) and I've been cursed for decades in having to deal with this monstrous corrupt bureaucracy in at least four different states. Don't tell me, or any other wounded combat veteran, that this is a problem exclusive to Phoenix. It isn't. It cuts a broad swath across the entire network. The VA is the world's largest government bureaucracy. This is your federal government busy at work murdering veterans. They've been doing it for decades. Do you like what you see?

  3. #73
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    So if someone is dying in front of you, and you can save them. Its OK to not save them if they are broke?
    Again, you fail to acknowledge that some things aren't possible. Some VA administrators have tried to deal with long waiting times by simply mandating that they be shortened without providing any of the resources necessary to do so (because they weren't available). Guess what, the shortening of waiting times didn't happen, but at least the administration got some congressman or another off of their backs.

    The Congress pretends to care about veterans and rags on the VA for not giving good, timely care without allocating the resources necessary to provide good, timely care. Guess what, the care doesn't get provided. But at least the Congress gets to say they care about veterans.

    See how it works? Don't laugh, your health care plan will be working the same way pretty soon except that Congress will have insurance companies to rag on and your premiums will be hiked to pay for any improvements.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Again, you fail to acknowledge that some things aren't possible. Some VA administrators have tried to deal with long waiting times by simply mandating that they be shortened without providing any of the resources necessary to do so (because they weren't available). Guess what, the shortening of waiting times didn't happen, but at least the administration got some congressman or another off of their backs.

    The Congress pretends to care about veterans and rags on the VA for not giving good, timely care without allocating the resources necessary to provide good, timely care. Guess what, the care doesn't get provided. But at least the Congress gets to say they care about veterans.

    See how it works? Don't laugh, your health care plan will be working the same way pretty soon except that Congress will have insurance companies to rag on and your premiums will be hiked to pay for any improvements.
    I don't doubt that Obama care will work the same way.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    What the hell planet are you from?
    Planet D 4/12 Inf.

    My experience with the VAMC system in the NY/NJ area has been awesome.

    The experiences of most of my vet friends in the NY/NJ VA area has been awesome.

    Does the VA occasionally drop the ball?

    In my experience yes.

    But no more so that a number of private hospitals I've patronized.

    A couple years ago my mother was in a private hospital being treated for cancer.

    They "lost" her.

    Literally parked her in a wheelchair in a hallway and forgot her there.

    When she tried to get help she was more or less ignored by the staff.

    After several hours she borrowed a cell phone from a visitor walking down the hall and called me to come pick her up.

    The hospital's response?

    Essentially: "Oops. Lulz. Our bad."

    I took her home and had the doctor reschedule her procedure out of another hospital he was affiliated with.

    And then the first hospital tried to bill her anyway.

    It went as far as our retaining a lawyer and threatening to go to the media before they relented.

    Again, private hospital.

    See - that's what you get when you opt for a free market, capitalist system!!!

    Right?

    Or does that sound ****ing stupid?

    Yeah, I agree that it does.

    Go Google "hospital sued" (40,000 results) or "hospital and malpractice" (nearly 4 million results).

    Again, something that happen EVERY DAY.

    At best/most I'll accept the argument that the VA healthcare system is no better and no worse than private helathcare.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    What the hell planet are you from? I was wounded several times in the Vietnam War (Lima Company Rangers, 75th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division) and I've been cursed for decades in having to deal with this monstrous corrupt bureaucracy in at least four different states. Don't tell me, or any other wounded combat veteran, that this is a problem exclusive to Phoenix. It isn't. It cuts a broad swath across the entire network. The VA is the world's largest government bureaucracy. This is your federal government busy at work murdering veterans. They've been doing it for decades. Do you like what you see?
    For what it's worth, satisfaction with VA care is 90% plus on surveys of veteran patients. Hospital accreditation boards rank VA hospital care as among the best next to private hospitals, the occasional dissatified veteran notwithstanding.

    Despite that, or because of it, the waiting times are long. Offer free or cheap care and the demand is going to be high.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    This article isn't a commentary on the VA healthcare system in it's entirely.

    It deals with the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, and the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system only.

    More specifically, since hospital care is at issue, it deals specifically with the Carl T. Hayden Veterans Affairs Medical Center - the only hospital in the Phoenix system.

    You (not just you - pretty much every "you" weighing in on this topic) are extrapolating a local issue out to be a national problem - and it isn't.

    For the most part, and for the overwhelming majority of veterans, the VA system provides awesome care.

    What you're doing is tantamount to reading an article about a single private hospital, that's part of a larger private hospital network, being sued for malpractice and jumping to the conclusion that "this is what you get when you opt for private healthcare".

    And make no mistake, private hospitals are sued for malpractice every single day.
    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    What the hell planet are you from? I was wounded several times in the Vietnam War (Lima Company Rangers, 75th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division) and I've been cursed for decades in having to deal with this monstrous corrupt bureaucracy in at least four different states. Don't tell me, or any other wounded combat veteran, that this is a problem exclusive to Phoenix. It isn't. It cuts a broad swath across the entire network. The VA is the world's largest government bureaucracy. This is your federal government busy at work murdering veterans. They've been doing it for decades. Do you like what you see?
    The OP is about the Carl Hayden VA Hospital in Phoenix. The VA system is like swiss cheese, it has huge holes in it. There are some good hospitals. Many of us have known about the Phoenix VA and have been complaining to Congressional representatives for years. In fact, I moved my VA primary from Phoenix to Tucson. I also have private insurance and use that for almost everything. I cannot say enough good things about the Tucson VA.

    When I was living in Florida I discovered that Atlanta was excellent in handling VA records so I left it that way and it remains that way today.

    What has been happening in Phoenix is inexcusable. Guilty VA administrators should go to jail. Sadly the people who were so supportive of American military going off to war all over the planet are not holding rallies and putting ribbons on their cars to support veterans when vets are treated like crap in places like Phoenix VA. Where are all those "true patriots" back home when you need them?


    Tommy

    I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
    But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

    ~ Rudyard Kipling












    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  8. #78
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Again, you fail to acknowledge that some things aren't possible.
    The issue is not what is or is not possible. The issue is a facility's deliberately providing false information to Washington. That practice would be no different from, let's say a company's filing false financial statements either to attract investment or to avoid paying taxes. The facility's fraud denied policy makers the dependable and timely information that might have led to corrective measures that could have reduced the wait periods. The extended waits that were hidden by the fraud had adverse medical consequences.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    I did exactly that when I waited 7 months for Dad's pension to Mom to pay her bills when he died.
    The field officer knew the right phone number and we received our booklet in a few weeks.
    I didn't mind picking up the tab since the Military had given them a life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    People have to all the time, I did exactly that.
    In the military they teach you to 'be your own advocate' - because they know their system sucks.
    Veterans shouldn't have to move heaven and earth just to go to a doctor for a heart condition.
    There seems to be quite a discussion going on lately about the "entitlement" some Veteran's families feel they should have.
    We were always grateful for what Uncle Sugar gave us.

    If 50% of Defense is going to Pensions and the VA, something has to give as Rep. Paul Ryan tried to accomplish last December.
    Asking my Mother to take 2% COLA versus 3% is not too much for me too handle.
    How much COLA is enough for the fat-cat Officer Millionaires ?
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The issue is not what is or is not possible. The issue is a facility's deliberately providing false information to Washington.
    The facility is in Red-State Arizona, home of the most ardent Neo-Con in the Senate, John McCain.
    Why aren't questions being directed towards him?
    I doubt if this would have gone on if Barry Goldwater was still Senator.
    I've heard quite enough politicization of the Armed Forces VA in this thread linked to ACA as I care to stand .
    Physics is Phun

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