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Thread: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    For starters:

    First, don't hide the realities. From the CNN article:

    There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

    That's fraud. The deception was deliberate and a matter of choice. The managers should be held fully accountable for the consequences of their actions, including but not limited to the deaths of the 40 persons that resulted from their practices.

    Second, have the courage to raise resource-related issues to the Secretary of Defense, if necessary. The Secretary is not omniscient. If problems are not brought to his attention, there's no assurance he will learn about them. Former Secretary of Defense Gates responded decisively when he learned of outpatient problems at Walter Reed. These problems are even worse, as they resulted in deaths, deaths that should not have happened.

    Third, if they believed they were in a position that was untenable and irrevocably beyond their control, have the ethics to resign.

    Those managers did not resign. There is no evidence to date that they tried to reach the Defense Secretary. They made deliberate and knowing choices. They should be held wholly accountable for the consequences of their purposeful decisions.
    What a bunch of sanctimonious twattle. Resign yourself. You and everyone else have helped establish this system. You didn't want to hear about the problems, you didn't want to have to pay for better care for veterans, you are as much responsible for this as anyone else.

    And now we have voted the same kind of system in to be the health care administrator for the rest of us. There will be no way to avoid it. Enjoy!

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    What a bunch of sanctimonious twattle. Resign yourself. You and everyone else have helped establish this system. You didn't want to hear about the problems, you didn't want to have to pay for better care for veterans, you are as much responsible for this as anyone else.

    And now we have voted the same kind of system in to be the health care administrator for the rest of us. There will be no way to avoid it. Enjoy!
    It's "sanctimonious twattle" only if one sees the vets as mere statistics on a piece of paper or a computer screen and nothing more. If one sees the vets as the individual persons they are (or were in the cases of those who died on account of the particular system's deliberate policy), the connections they have to their families and communities, and appreciates the risks and sacrifices they made on behalf of this nation, one cannot but feel outraged over the managers' needless, purposeful, and knowing choices.

    Finally,the U.S. justice system is premised on the notion of individual responsibility, not collective guilt. Appealing to collective guilt or collective responsibility does not exonerate the managers from responsibility for their deliberate choices and the consequences of those choices. I realize that the idea of collective guilt might have appeal to some as it dilutes or undermines the sense of individual responsibility freeing one from notions of accountability for one's actions, but such a concept is alien both to the the principles of the U.S. founding and the judicial framework that was created during that time and evolved afterward.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 04-24-14 at 09:26 AM.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    It's the kind of system that we have committed to for everyone in the country. You won't be able to avoid it. Congratulations, fools!

    You think you have any control or say over any of this any more? Morons! You gave all that up, and for what? You thought you'd be getting something for nothing.
    We have to pass it to see what's in it. They don't know this is coming, and Obama and the people who put this in place will be long gone when it happens.
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No, it is not.
    Ok, I am willing to try and understand Deuce....Tell me how it's different...
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    For some historical context on how the Walter Reed scandal was addressed, here are excerpts from The Washington Post:

    The commander of Walter Reed Army Medical Center was fired yesterday after the Army said it had lost trust and confidence in his leadership in the wake of a scandal over outpatient treatment of wounded troops at the Northwest Washington hospital complex...

    "The care and welfare of our wounded men and women in uniform demand the highest standard of excellence and commitment that we can muster as a government," Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said in a statement. "When this standard is not met, I will insist on swift and direct corrective action and, where appropriate, accountability up the chain of command."
    Army Fires Commander of Walter Reed

    The initial story that revealed the scandal: Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

    Key points:

    1. The action was decisive and swift (just 10 days after The Washington Post broke the story.
    2. This scandal did not involve the deaths of veterans.
    3. Secretary Gates and other senior policy makers did not embrace notions of collective guilt nor try to blame the American people for the deplorable situation.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    It's the kind of system that we have committed to for everyone in the country. You won't be able to avoid it. Congratulations, fools! You think you have any control or say over any of this any more? Morons! You gave all that up, and for what? You thought you'd be getting something for nothing.
    No, it's not.

    The VA was never a serious attempt to replace for profit healthcare for service members. Ever... ever...

    It is now a salve the 'never served' chest thumpers try and smear on vets to feel like 'they support the troops'. Thanks but I sure don't need your 'support'...

    Since the 70's the VA has always been the last resort. In the 80's President Reagan elevating the VA to cabinet level did little more than create more overhead and make the top tier administrators political appointees.

    Most vets risked little more than a paper cut while serving, most go on to spend 30+ years in the civilian sector and most retirees have been drawing 1/2 pay the entire time they worked another job. Depending on the VA only for healthcare is ignorant for the vast majority of vets.

    The VA hospital system should be for disabled vets only.

    What the rest of us could use is a voucher or discount system to use in the civilian world. A supplement to our civilian health care insurance. Disabled or critical health care vets get a bigger discount but the idea of a stand alone healthcare system- that's called reinventing the wheel around here- is flawed. back in the 1920-30's the idea of healthcare, insurance and benefits was revolutionary and cutting edge... now the VA has been overtaken by civilian healthcare.

    Most in the National Guard can't use the VA system as they live in small towns far away from 'Capital City'. It is of little use to many who served in the recent wars unless they uproot their families to move to a city with a VA care center.

    I hope and pray I NEVER need the VA when it comes to healthcare or a nursing home. For a lot of vets the VA healthcare system is a 'benefit' we damn sure don't want.

    Use the VA system for critical care vets, voucher the rest of us and the never served ranters can at ease with the comparisons of VA with ACA.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    I see a bunch of folks getting bent out of shape when not all information is present.
    And the information provided is severally lacking, especially in regards to his actions or lack thereof.
    Like why didn't he do his own follow up by conducting a walk-in at his primary care clinic?
    Yeah, there is a lot of information missing.
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I see a bunch of folks getting bent out of shape when not all information is present.
    And the information provided is severally lacking, especially in regards to his actions or lack thereof.
    Like why didn't he do his own follow up by conducting a walk-in at his primary care clinic?
    Yeah, there is a lot of information missing.
    It is likely that at least some veterans might have been able to take measures to mitigate matters related to their own personal situations, but many likely had expectations that the system in question would deliver. The expectation that a health facility would deliver reasonable service is not an unrealistic one. However, that's an entirely separate matter.

    What is clear from the news account is that the system in question was deliberately providing Washington with false data. Had Washington had access to the correct data, Washington would have been in a position to take corrective measures ranging from addressing possible resource-related matters to replacing ineffective managers, among others. At least some, if not many steps might have already been undertaken.

    Instead, the managers of the system willfully provided false data. As the deception was deliberate, their actions amounted to fraud. In the meantime, 40 veterans died due to excessive waits, a situation the managers chose to hide. Had Washington had correct information, the problems might well have been fixed and many of those veterans might well have received treatment on a more timely basis. In turn, deaths that took place could have been avoided. It's that aspect of fraud and the consequences of that fraud that are not in doubt.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 04-24-14 at 10:42 AM.

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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    It is likely that at least some veterans might have been able to take measures to mitigate matters related to their own personal situations, but many likely had expectations that the system in question would deliver. The expectation that a health facility would deliver reasonable service is not an unrealistic one. However, that's an entirely separate matter.
    Most veterans, and those who take care of them, know how to utilize the system. So something isn't being said here.

    If I could base it on visual appearance alone. I would say it is the fault of his family member's for not doing what they should have to get him in.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In the meantime, 40 veterans died due to excessive waits, a situation the managers chose to hide.
    You do not know that. That is apparently what they want you to believe but they didn't back it up, or even say those 40 died because of the wait.
    For all we know those forty died of car accidents while on the waiting list.
    So like I said, there is a lot of information missing.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    This is the inevitable result of having high demand for services and low supply. What are the local managers supposed to do?
    If needed call in private practice doctors. Call in private nurses, call in who ever you have to. But to let people suffer and die? No excuse for that.
    Go far enough up the chain of command and you will find who to blame.

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