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High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

Gipper said:
There are ways around that.

If DeLaShequah Watkins is applying to college, asking her race is rather redundant.
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At the same time, Mary Elizabeth Anderson could be a young black girl who was adopted by a white couple in Minneapolis.
 
haymarket said:
But it is still the right thing to do just the same if we believe that the principle should admit only the best and brightest.
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You're right about "brightest", or at least MORE right than wrong with regards to that. However, "best" is a poor word to use there as it's rather subjective. What makes the "best" student, or whose the "best" type of student to bring into a University, isn't some kind of definitive objective prototype.

But if the principle is to bring in the brighest, as deemed via grades and test scores, then you'd be absolutely correct that admitting ONLY based on GPA's and test scores would be the best action to live up to that principle.
 
tres borrachos said:
At the same time, Mary Elizabeth Anderson could be a young black girl who was adopted by a white couple in Minneapolis.
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I'd give it a shot.

You know she has a better chance than a kid whose mother named her DeLaShequah.
 
Gipper said:
The meritocrat is often considered a racist, a bully, and an asshole. This is how the world works.
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I think the problem is many mistakenly think there is a clear cut choice when there rarely is. Nearly all considered meet the merit considerations. We are then left to make decisions based on something else. Few colleges really consider GPA and Test scores all that important as anything other than narrowing the field, to prevent having to consider too many applicants. After that hurdle is crossed, the differences are fuzzy and not easily assessed, or at least not as easily as some pretend. And are often decided by factors such as did your parents give money? As I recall, Michigan gave points for where you lived (UP or Alaska). Legacy. All things that have little to do with merit, unless of course the school values those things, and thus sees merit in them.

I also find it curious that the government does not impose any such criteria for selection. The courts have constantly told schools they can't do this. But SCHOOLS, not government, see a value in this. Perhaps we should ask why?
 
Boo Radley said:
I think the problem is many mistakenly think there is a clear cut choice when there rarely is. Nearly all considered meet the merit considerations. We are then left to make decisions based on something else. Few colleges really consider GPA and Test scores all that important as anything other than narrowing the field, to prevent having to consider too many applicants. After that hurdle is crossed, the differences are fuzzy and not easily assessed, or at least not as easily as some pretend. And are often decided by factors such as did your parents give money? As I recall, Michigan gave points for where you lived (UP or Alaska). Legacy. All things that have little to do with merit, unless of course the school values those things, and thus sees merit in them.

I also find it curious that the government does not impose any such criteria for selection. The courts have constantly told schools they can't do this. But SCHOOLS, not government, see a value in this. Perhaps we should ask why?
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No. How about you let schools decide. I don't have a problem that I can't get into Grambling.
 
Gipper said:
No. How about you let schools decide. I don't have a problem that I can't get into Grambling.
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Schools are deciding. They're the ones sued, not the government. There is no law requiring them to do this. They lose these cases because they violate AA and discriminate.
 
Boo Radley said:
Schools are deciding. They're the ones sued, not the government. There is no law requiring them to do this. They lose these cases because they violate AA and discriminate.
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Okay, let schools decide without government force. Better?

Affirmative Action badly needs to die. That's why we have terms like "token" in the English language.
 
Gipper said:
Okay, let schools decide without government force. Better?

Affirmative Action badly needs to die. That's why we have terms like "token" in the English language.
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Without affirmative action, the schools would have won the case. It is affirmative action that prevents them from discriminating based on race. And no, we have terms like "token" based on misunderstandings of the law. Not the law itself.
 
Boo Radley said:
Without affirmative action, the schools would have won the case. It is affirmative action that prevents them from discriminating based on race. And no, we have terms like "token" based on misunderstandings of the law. Not the law itself.
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Yeah, uh, no. Affirmative Action prevents them from accepting on merit.

And it creates tokens because people know who belong there and who are there by quota.
 
Zyphlin said:
You're right about "brightest", or at least MORE right than wrong with regards to that. However, "best" is a poor word to use there as it's rather subjective. What makes the "best" student, or whose the "best" type of student to bring into a University, isn't some kind of definitive objective prototype.

But if the principle is to bring in the brighest, as deemed via grades and test scores, then you'd be absolutely correct that admitting ONLY based on GPA's and test scores would be the best action to live up to that principle.
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I think you have a good point. I anguish myself about what the standard should be. Are a GPA and test scores the be all and end all of a measurement of a young man or woman? I suspect not. I suspect one needs to look at more. And perhaps that is what is being done with the granting of preferences such as considering ones family background, their economic conditions, what they have overcome in life and other such things. Perhaps even race or ones talents or gifts should play a role. I cannot argue that any or all of these things might be right and proper for consideration.

Of course the problem then becomes one of the recipe and who is to judge the result put before us. And - in all humility i confess - I do not know how to fairly do that so one is not unfairly disadvantaged over another.

We took race into consideration as a plus because for so long society took race into consideration as a minus. Plain and simple - it was an attempt to right a wrong. But in doing so we committed further wrongs in denying academically qualified people spots in universities at the expense of not so qualified people. That is not a good thing and perhaps even perpetuates racial wrongs in further generations creating malice and resentment where otherwise none had previously flourished or taken root.

I am happy you embrace the principle of admitting the best and the brightest and GPA and test scores seem to be the only objective way to accomplish that. We live in a land where college is now plentiful and all who are able can find a place at some level and prove themselves.
 
Cardinal said:
No one's under any obligation to be overt about their racism. So if a college picks a white student over a black student for racist reasons, and both students are equally qualified, how do you prove it?
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Yet you have many colleges picking black students over white students for racist reasons and they're not at all shy about it, yet liberals don't want to talk about that.
 
Cephus said:
Yet you have many colleges picking black students over white students for racist reasons and they're not at all shy about it, yet liberals don't want to talk about that.
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I think that's a valid concern and you should definitely take it up with them. If a college picks a white student over a black student for racist reasons, and both students are equally qualified, how do you prove it?
 
If you are for this, you are for segregation. If you are against this, you are for discrimination.

Sad we can't have equality.
 
Blue_State said:
If you are for this, you are for segregation. If you are against this, you are for discrimination.

Sad we can't have equality.
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Sad we can't have a decent educational system like Germany, Japan or the Netherlands. In the USA, whether or not you go to U of M's engineering or law school depends a lot on in which zip code you were born and raised. If you went to public school in Waterford or the other well to do sections of Oakland County, you stand a 1000x better chance of going to the state's top school than if you're from Detroit or even Pontiac.
 
White people whining about affirmative action always struck me as silly. It's not like we have too many people of color in the top tier schools. So what if a few underprivileged kids catch a break and a white kid or two has to go to Michigan State?
 
Cardinal said:
I think that's a valid concern and you should definitely take it up with them. If a college picks a white student over a black student for racist reasons, and both students are equally qualified, how do you prove it?
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If you can't prove it, why are you so concerned that it's going on? How do you know it's happening? We can prove that colleges are picking black students over white students, yet you just have a "feeling" that the reverse is happening.
 
Cephus said:
If you can't prove it, why are you so concerned that it's going on? How do you know it's happening? We can prove that colleges are picking black students over white students, yet you just have a "feeling" that the reverse is happening.
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Do you deny it?
 
Cephus said:
Yet you have many colleges picking black students over white students for racist reasons and they're not at all shy about it, yet liberals don't want to talk about that.
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If a marginal white student is passed over for an exceptional black kid, I think that's a good thing.
 
haymarket said:
Let us hope that this is simply one step in getting rid OF ALL PREFERENCES in college admissions. And I do mean ALL. If we want to admit the most qualified based on HS GPA and some test scores like the SAT's - then lets use those and let in the best and deny admission to anybody else not making that standard of admission.

How many here would support that?
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Your only problem is the U.S. Constitution. Preference based on race is unconstitutional. Not all preferences are. :peace
 
calamity said:
White people whining about affirmative action always struck me as silly. It's not like we have too many people of color in the top tier schools. So what if a few underprivileged kids catch a break and a white kid or two has to go to Michigan State?
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That is my favorite part. It is reverse racism. Screw him because he is white. Let's not judge him on his merit.
 
calamity said:
If a marginal white student is passed over for an exceptional black kid, I think that's a good thing.
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How about a marginal black student gets a spot instead of an exceptional white kid? Do you think that's a good thing too?
 
Cephus said:
You're the one that claims it, it's up to you to present evidence. Got any?
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You are very very VERY confused about who's saying what in this thread. Perhaps you've got me confused with someone else? My suggestion to you: read gooder.
 
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